March 31, 2014 at 10:42 am
skeleton567 (3/31/2014)
"I wonder if we might encourage people to enter technology professions, not on the basis of their race or gender, but on the basis of their socioeconomic status?"Wow, that really is pretty goofy. Sounds like programmer's logic to me. What you failed to mention is whether socioeconomic status would be required to be high or low.
I assumed you'd be able to figure that out for yourself.
Apparently not?
March 31, 2014 at 10:52 am
GoofyGuy (3/31/2014)
I wonder if we might encourage people to enter technology professions, not on the basis of their race or gender, but on the basis of their socioeconomic status?Race and gender classifications seem rather dated and inaccurate to me.
I actually think that Information Technology, especially on the application development / database administration end of the spectrum, is a relatively easy field to break into for someone who has a natural aptitude for it. It's much more accessible today than it was 20 years ago. Personal computers and internet connectivity have become as common place within the general public as TV, even at the lower income level. Programming and database development tools are available for free, and there is a limitless supply of documentation, training and support on the internet.
There was a time when a hopeful IT career seeker had to knock on the glass door of a white male dominated corporation to land a job, and he (forget about she) needed a CIS masters degree and $300 suit to have any chance of success. Those days are long past, and have been passed for at least two decades. If you know anything about software or database development, then the corporate world will roll out the red carpet; they don't give a damn who you are, so long as you know how to solve their IT problems and don't have a criminal record.
"Do not seek to follow in the footsteps of the wise. Instead, seek what they sought." - Matsuo Basho
March 31, 2014 at 11:03 am
Eric M Russell wrote:
I actually think that Information Technology, especially on the application development / database administration end of the spectrum, is a relatively easy field to break into for someone who has a natural aptitude for it. It's much more accessible today than it was 20 years ago. Personal computers and internet connectivity have become as common place within the general public as TV, even at the lower income level.
I agree with you, Eric; but I also feel that lower-income individuals may not be as aware of these opportunities, nor realise whether/if they have a natural aptitude for them. I think that's where some kind of professional association for them may help.
I once worked in a part of the US in which the lower socioeconomic rungs of the ladder were occupied by poor whites (both men and women). I guess that's why I feel we ought to be offering assistance not on the basis of race or gender, but on something more telling: poverty.
March 31, 2014 at 11:06 am
"I wonder if we might encourage people to enter technology professions, not on the basis of their race or gender, but on the basis of their socioeconomic status?"
Wow, that really is pretty goofy. Sounds like programmer's logic to me. What you failed to mention is whether socioeconomic status would be required to be high or low.
"I assumed you'd be able to figure that out for yourself."
OK. I'll simplify it for you. Is your comment implying that the more economically advantaged are better suited or that the less economically advantaged are more deserving?
Rick
Disaster Recovery = Backup ( Backup ( Your Backup ) )
March 31, 2014 at 11:14 am
GoofyGuy (3/31/2014)
...I agree with you, Eric; but I also feel that lower-income individuals may not be as aware of these opportunities, nor realise whether/if they have a natural aptitude for them. I think that's where some kind of professional association for them may help.
Certainly an issue but it's not just lower income/wealth groups. It's also various other groups, which could be ethnicity, gender, etc.
March 31, 2014 at 11:17 am
skeleton567 (3/31/2014)
"I wonder if we might encourage people to enter technology professions, not on the basis of their race or gender, but on the basis of their socioeconomic status?"Wow, that really is pretty goofy. Sounds like programmer's logic to me. What you failed to mention is whether socioeconomic status would be required to be high or low.
"I assumed you'd be able to figure that out for yourself."
OK. I'll simplify it for you. Is your comment implying that the more economically advantaged are better suited or that the less economically advantaged are more deserving?
That's an old debate tactic: offer two choices to your opponent, neither of which he finds agreeable or reasonable.
Please, save the condescension and the debate forensics for someone else. Thanks.
March 31, 2014 at 11:18 am
skeleton567 (3/31/2014)
Come on, Steve. You sound like the one who is 'impacted' this morning. Get over it. Don't try to twist my comments. What I pointed out was that REGARDLESS OF ETHNICITY, SEXUALITY, or whatever, there was an incompetency that was the REAL problem. In this same group we had other people of minority status that were among the best and brightest and most productive. It would have been a loss to us all if they had gone off on their own due to, and I repeat myself, IRRELEVANT difference.
I've absolutely been impacted by this, however that's not the point. I'm not complaining about it, raising awareness.
You stated that this hurt his stereotype. I pointed out that is part of the problem why groups that help/support classifications should exist. Precisely because people make stereotypes and assume others are the same way.
March 31, 2014 at 11:20 am
djackson 22568 (3/31/2014)
Special interest groups do not cause prejudiced people to wake up and realize they are wrong. They do cause non-prejudiced people outside the group to feel like they are being discriminated against. Therefore the assumption that they help eliminate discrimination is incorrect.If I understand correctly your point is not about making discrimination go away, it is about helping women, or other groups, succeed in technology. Their (all groups!) success benefits all of us.
Fair statements, and I was hoping to make the point that those outside of some group shouldn't feel discriminated against because that's not the point of the group. So men shouldn't feel that WIT in some way hurts them with discrimination. I suppose if WIT promotes more women to get jobs, then some men will be excluded, assuming the supply of jobs stays the same, but I'd like to think that the more competent people fitting those jobs get hired, regardless of whether they are men or women.
March 31, 2014 at 11:21 am
GoofyGuy (3/31/2014)
Eric M Russell wrote:I actually think that Information Technology, especially on the application development / database administration end of the spectrum, is a relatively easy field to break into for someone who has a natural aptitude for it. It's much more accessible today than it was 20 years ago. Personal computers and internet connectivity have become as common place within the general public as TV, even at the lower income level.
I agree with you, Eric; but I also feel that lower-income individuals may not be as aware of these opportunities, nor realise whether/if they have a natural aptitude for them. I think that's where some kind of professional association for them may help.
I once worked in a part of the US in which the lower socioeconomic rungs of the ladder were occupied by poor whites (both men and women). I guess that's why I feel we ought to be offering assistance not on the basis of race or gender, but on something more telling: poverty.
You're right, often times all the resources are technically accessible, but there just isn't a spark of inspiration. It takes someone who they can relate to acting as a role model or mentor. Our society pays folks to sit on the bench when we really should be doing a better job of showing the young and disadvantaged what's out there and motivating them to reach for it. Our economy as a whole is firing on six of it's eight cylinders, when we consider all the untapped human potential.
"Do not seek to follow in the footsteps of the wise. Instead, seek what they sought." - Matsuo Basho
March 31, 2014 at 11:22 am
GilaMonster (3/31/2014)
And some (I hope a very small minority) who are a little more extreme and vocal... http://www.destructoid.com/bioware-writer-s-vagina-versus-the-internet-222206.phtml
I'd hope so, but regardless of their vocality, I think there are entirely too many people that think this way.
March 31, 2014 at 11:22 am
Thanks, Eric, good reply. Well said.
March 31, 2014 at 11:35 am
Steve Jones - SSC Editor (3/31/2014)
GoofyGuy (3/31/2014)
...I agree with you, Eric; but I also feel that lower-income individuals may not be as aware of these opportunities, nor realise whether/if they have a natural aptitude for them. I think that's where some kind of professional association for them may help.
Certainly an issue but it's not just lower income/wealth groups. It's also various other groups, which could be ethnicity, gender, etc.
I suppose we simply have different ways of looking at the issue, Steve, although I'm glad we both think action of some kind is needed.
Another participant noted that delineating the lack of opportunity by race and/or gender tends to fuel controversy, even though the intent is good. I agree with this view; but critically for me, I believe poverty is more at the root of the problem than one's skin colour or sexual categorisation. I came to this belief after working in Arkansas, and witnessing firsthand in the Ozarks poor whites suffering a kind of grinding impoverishment I found as shocking as any other I'd seen in America.
March 31, 2014 at 11:41 am
GoofyGuy (3/31/2014)
I suppose we simply have different ways of looking at the issue, Steve, although I'm glad we both think action of some kind is needed.
Another participant noted that delineating the lack of opportunity by race and/or gender tends to fuel controversy, even though the intent is good. I agree with this view; but critically for me, I believe poverty is more at the root of the problem than one's skin colour or sexual categorisation. I came to this belief after working in Arkansas, and witnessing firsthand in the Ozarks poor whites suffering a kind of grinding impoverishment I found as shocking as any other I'd seen in America.
Poverty is absolutely an issue. Perhaps more than gender or race or other issues. While I support and appreciate groups that struggle with acceptance, I'd also like to see groups that work to help people overcome economic issues.
We certainly don't appreciate in the US how big a factor poverty can play in your career.
March 31, 2014 at 11:42 am
"I wonder if we might encourage people to enter technology professions, not on the basis of their race or gender, but on the basis of their socioeconomic status?"
Wow, that really is pretty goofy. Sounds like programmer's logic to me. What you failed to mention is whether socioeconomic status would be required to be high or low.
"I assumed you'd be able to figure that out for yourself."
OK. I'll simplify it for you. Is your comment implying that the more economically advantaged are better suited or that the less economically advantaged are more deserving?
"That's an old debate tactic: offer two choices to your opponent, neither of which he finds agreeable or reasonable.
Please, save the condescension and the debate forensics for someone else. Thanks."
I felt the condescension was in the "I assumed you'd be able to figure that out for yourself."
As far as the debate tactic, what about attacking the other instead of answering the question?
Exactly what did you mean by the original comment? What do you think socioeconomic status have to do with encouraging people to strive for technology professions?
Rick
Disaster Recovery = Backup ( Backup ( Your Backup ) )
March 31, 2014 at 11:51 am
I felt the condescension was in the "I assumed you'd be able to figure that out for yourself."
No, it was in the 'Wow, that really is pretty goofy. Sounds like programmer's logic to me.'
As far as the debate tactic, what about attacking the other instead of answering the question?
Exactly what did you mean by the original comment? What do you think socioeconomic status have to do with encouraging people to strive for technology professions?
I'd invite you to read my subsequent posts in this thread. I think Eric Russell and Steve Jones understood the thoughts I'd laid out in them. If you still have questions after doing so, I'd be happy to attempt answering you.
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