October 13, 2009 at 12:17 am
Comments posted to this topic are about the item Working at Microsoft
October 13, 2009 at 12:41 am
I've got to agree with you on this one. I joined the SQL team at MS in the late 90s at the height of the coolness, just after 7.0 shipped and worked alongside the likes of Peter Spiro, Paul Flessner and Dave Campbell (eventually taking over his dev team). I was one of the guys that wore shorts all year round for a few years.
Over the 9 years I was there, I saw a bunch of smart people move to other groups or out of the company altogether, especially after the 5-year slog of SQL Server 2005 - and by 2007 it wasn't doing it for me anymore - so that's when I bailed to join Kimberly working at SQLskills.com.
I could have stayed at MS, driving SQL Server onwards, and progressed up the ranks to partner level in a few years, but as you basically say, there's more to life than work.
Nice editorial - cheers
Paul Randal
CEO, SQLskills.com: Check out SQLskills online training!
Blog:www.SQLskills.com/blogs/paul Twitter: @PaulRandal
SQL MVP, Microsoft RD, Contributing Editor of TechNet Magazine
Author of DBCC CHECKDB/repair (and other Storage Engine) code of SQL Server 2005
October 13, 2009 at 12:54 am
Kind of interesting, I too was interested in working for Microsoft years ago, it did seem to be the in thing, at the time. I used to work with people who were approached by microsoft to come and work for them, but they turned it down purely for financial reasons. From what I remember microsoft is not a good payer, you joined microsoft years ago for the supposed kudos and wow factor. not sure that really applies now. I dont think microsoft is the same dynamic company it used to be. If the opportunity came up, maybe I would take a look, but the chances of them employing a uk based contractor is slight and like steve, it wouldnt really be top of my priorities.
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October 13, 2009 at 3:18 am
I worked for Microsoft 2001 - 2004 at their MSN offices in Soho, London. We had a great mix of young talented system engineers, DBAs and PMs and it was the most progressive environment I had ever worked in up to that stage. The base pay wasn't great but the benefits made up for it. You felt part of a family and MS looked after you. We had all the gadgets and free sodas in the fridge.
I thought I'd never match that for work environments but after that I worked at a large gaming software company for a couple of years and that work environment was even better with even more talented people. No flip flops here - some guys were barefoot! And we had a canteen with free food and drinks!
Alas, I am now back in the conservative world of Finance - Suit and tie, very little work flexibilty but much much better pay.
thanks
SQL_EXPAT
October 13, 2009 at 5:24 am
I'd be mildly tempted by Google, but only if they had an office in Orlando. Not many jobs worth moving for - for me anyway.
I think you'd be good at the Scoble thing, but I don't know if they'd let you go all out - that would be the rub!
October 13, 2009 at 7:11 am
We've all read the stories about what it was like to work at major companies when they first started up. What would it have been like to work at Apple when when Steve Jobs was working out of a garage and paid people in stock that later skyrocketed? What would it have been like to work with Bill Gates when Microsoft was just a startup? And of course, we all hear the wonders of the first employees of Google with benefits coming out the ears as well as stock that seemed to guarantee a comfy retirement after 10 years.
Of course, Steve is talking about getting on board after the company is established, but when there is still opportunity to have an impact on major products. One way or the other though it seems like the wonderful stories we hear about these places all have one thing in common: A small group of very lucky people were in the right place at the right time. There are plenty of startups that go under after sucking the lives out of everyone involved. There are plenty of companies that even looked like they were going to make exciting contributions before being blasted away - can you say "dot-com boom of the 90's"? Even more though, the pattern seems to be "Stage One: Exciting", Stage Two: Figure out how to make money for the long haul". Stage two tends to be more boring that stage one.
I have a lot of respect for the smart people who continue to make great products at Microsoft and other companies, but I think Steve's decision to choose a quieter, yet still substantial path for himself and his family has a lot of merit.
___________________________________________________
“Politicians are like diapers. They both need changing regularly and for the same reason.”
October 13, 2009 at 7:39 am
I would have loved to work at Microsoft in its heyday - say the early 80's - but today? No thanks. Microsoft fans and devotees love to announce that Microsoft "innovates". Really?
So you're telling me that if you wrote a letter to your Grandmother in the first release of MS Word in 1983, that Word has "progressed" so far over the years that writing that same letter now would be... easier? better? different at all? How about Excel? Have the improvements to Excel been so revolutionary that accountants today simply cannot live without the current version? I don't think so... What about SQL Server itself? Has it been "revolutionized" since the early 90's? Would it be impossible for you to do your job today with the "improvements"? Again, I don't think so...
So what does this really mean? It means that over the years Microsoft simply rehashes most of its same old products and then gives them slick adjectives so we fools will buy new versions. And new products? Uh, lets see.. There's Bob, Vista, InfoPath, Groove and countless other "flop" products that barely get touched usually because they are way too over-complicated for the general computing masses. Microsoft hardly innovates - better said, in the last decade they seem to stumble along like a blind old dog trying to find a friendly tree.
Many of us who were in the business when MS was at its height simply shake our heads now to see what the company has become. Its a collection of very intelligent folks but sadly without a lick of common sense hence they are rarely able to keep from stumbling over their own great ideas. Disagree? Study the advent and history of Windows Vista - its a stark example of how brains without common sense are about as good as a row boat with no oars. You will float, but you're not going anywhere.
And that's what Microsoft continues to do to this day. With no competition, floating is apparently "impressive" to some. Me, I'd rather get somewhere than just enjoy the same old scenery.
October 13, 2009 at 7:55 am
I worked at MS albeit in a Vendor capacity close to three years. At the end of the three years I was offered full time and the hiring freeze came in.
Thats when I moved out of MS to a different company. My take is that you are all right. somewhere down the road the passion and the charm got lost. when I started at MS I was very excited that I would be doing cool things but I did not work on any cool things.
I did the same rhetoric boring things over and over and it started wearing me down. I wanted more challenge and felt MS was not providing that challenge that I was looking for. Today I would say MS is like any other company and i believe cool things can be done in outside companies as well. However Opinions can always differ between individuals. This is just my opinion.
Thanks
M
October 13, 2009 at 9:23 am
I still think working at MSFT is pretty cool. I enjoy what I do and the people I work with. the people I work with at MSFT are the best I've ever worked with anywhere. I could make more money working somewhere else, but the benefits here are still unparallelled.
October 13, 2009 at 9:24 am
There's a pretty standard cycle with most activities, including companies:
It starts out enthusiastic, everyone excited and new things being created, with a lot of life and energy
It gets conservative after a few beatings have been taken in various areas, and the interest becomes more "keeping it going" than innovation and creativity
After a while of that, it gets boring and nobody can work up much of an interest in it all, but it's still moving along
Then it gets into stopping things: the competition instead of out-creating them, stopping people from stealing all your ideas, instead of creating new ones, lobbying governments to stop ideas that will kill your current revenue stream, and so on
From there, it's a short trip to apathetically just trying not to fail completely
And finally, it fades away and dies
That's not the only path available, but it does seem to be the most common.
The RIAA, for example, is in the stopping stage. Instead of doing something creative, they're busy suing their own customers, and so on.
Chrysler is in the apathy stage and dependent on others to keep them on life support.
Apple is doing a fair job of staying in the enthusiastic stage in a variety of areas.
Microsoft seems to be going through the conservative band into the boredom band.
And so on.
- Gus "GSquared", RSVP, OODA, MAP, NMVP, FAQ, SAT, SQL, DNA, RNA, UOI, IOU, AM, PM, AD, BC, BCE, USA, UN, CF, ROFL, LOL, ETC
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"Nobody knows the age of the human race, but everyone agrees it's old enough to know better." - Anon
October 13, 2009 at 9:36 am
I've talked to a guy that worked in a Microsoft office supporting the MSN side (Hotmail, etc). From what I got from him it was not a pretty company to work for. I don't recall exactly when he was working for them but believe it was after 2000. I was told the way that management handled employee appraisals was ridiculous.
Then I have heard of guys that took jobs with Microsoft with a consultant role that are at Microsoft's beckon call. They need you to go to Alaska to help a major customer for support reasons, you go. However, if those circumstances don't bother you go for it. At one point I would not have mind to much doing that.
Shawn Melton
Twitter: @wsmelton
Blog: wsmelton.github.com
Github: wsmelton
October 13, 2009 at 11:21 am
I worked for MS in the Dallas PSS offices from 1994 thru 1998. In those days, MS was wonderful but it began a dramatic decline about the time I left.
MS gave me the opportunity to quit being a musician and become a technical person. They took my skills with RTV and primitive basic programming and built upon them. They don't do it anymore but at that time I was trained on, get ready for it..... MSDOS 5.0/6.x and Windows 3.1 before being trained on the product I was hired to support. I was trained for 6 Paid Weeks! MS invested in me by teaching me values it subsequently forgot. Eventually MS stopped training people and the quality of support dramatically declined as we all know.
The most basic value I learned is "good code is fast code". To this day I won't write a line that I can't get to run as fast as I am able and it was Microsoft that taught that value to me. It is ironic today that they have just the opposite value. I guess that just shows how companies really do change over time.
I will never regret working there. I would even go back if they paid me enough and the job was sufficiently interesting. But, I'm glad I left and experienced a much bigger universe than the one perceived by Microsoft. Would they hire me back? Technically, yes but philosophically no. They believe in big fat code and sloppy clunky interfaces that confuse the user. I believe just the opposite. Considering there are 89,000 of them and one of the world's worst bureaucracies and only one of me, I would find the experience frustrating and unprofitable.
October 13, 2009 at 12:08 pm
I know quite a few people that still enjoy Microsoft, both inside SQL Server and outside of it. Meeting some of the developers and PMs at the MVP Summit was neat as there are quite a few people that are very passionate and enjoy what they do. I think in places and pockets, MS is still probably a fun company.
Not much different than many other large companies. Parts of them are great, parts not so great.
Now if they want to open an office in Denver, or Tahoe....
October 13, 2009 at 1:40 pm
Steve Jones - Editor (10/13/2009)
Not much different than many other large companies. Parts of them are great, parts not so great.
I'd say that's pretty accurate.
October 13, 2009 at 3:38 pm
12 hour days, unpaid weekend work, endless meetings, unrealistic "stretch goals", 2/3 market salary, negative stock options, soul-draining bureaucracy, constant re-orgs, and the daily drone of work sprinkled with just enough chaos to make it seem interesting (but really only creating stress where none existed). I think that pretty much sums up my experience as an MS FTE. Or in the old MS parlance: as a "blue badge".
However, as a contractor it's a rockin' place to work. Interesting work, market rates, normal hours, shielded from the bureaucracy...pretty much the exact opposite of working there full-time. Now that stock options are a cruel joke I personally can't imagine why someone would be there as an FTE unless the specific goal is to climb the corporate ladder. What a quaint - yet archaic - Baby Boomer concept.
James Stover, McDBA
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