January 6, 2010 at 2:40 pm
laura davis (1/6/2010)
The worst part is the hours. Most programmer jobs are 60+ hours a week, every week. The other killer is that you have to keep up with technology on your own time on top of the full time job. I took a pay cut to work 40 hrs/wk with some flexibility in my hours.
You know I know guys who think this as well. I have to get it done instead of saying "whoa hat is wrong here". I work 40 hours a week and am salary. I have directly told my boss (female) I will work 40 but if something goes wrong or is majorly important I will do what needs to be done. But I will not do that more often and that if me and my co-workers really need to work 60+ every week they need to hire another person (especially in this economy). I have friends in other companies that work 60-70 hours every week and are salary, I told them they have to put their foot done and make the company acknowledge they had no right to cut the other peoples jobs just to improve their bottom line. This amounts in my opinion to slave labor, not paying a person for the hours worked. Some of those folks have since been let go even thou they worked their butts off while the company off shored the code to India or China only to be offered their jobs back weeks later once the off shore companies bill arrived for actualy hours.
January 6, 2010 at 2:58 pm
Wow, interesting discussion, although the topic may be too broad for a single discussion. I think we can take as a given (I will anyway) that there is a gender disparity. It also seems well established that the disparity is growing. How much and how fast? That's a tough question that will likely take substantial research to sort out. Must something be done about it? Again, a big question that could be a major discussion itself.
Most comments seemed to be focused on why the disparity is growing, so I'll stick with that as well. First, I think there are cultural aspects (for clarity, I'm in the U.S. and will be referring to the U.S. culture, economy, whatever unless otherwise noted). I'll try to be brief, but each of these could be its own discussion. One of these aspects I think of as a pendulum effect. Many years ago we were a largely sexist society, the "women's movement"/feminism/whatever you want to call it came along, change happened and progress was made. In some ways it was over done, such that some women felt pressured to have careers rather than staying home with kids, political correctness went a little overboard, and so on. So there was some backlash... numbers of stay at home moms increased and some men tried to be more manly with mixed results (see the Man Show and other sexist or questionable pop culture). I think we're still feeling some of the effects of that. I think the natural progression of the younger generation rebelling against the current social mores results in more objectification of women, and thus sexism. If the stigma is a bit less on sexist or borderline behavior, you're like to see more of it, especially in mostly-male groups.
More specific to IT, there are likely many causes. Some could be taxonomic. For example, a data analyst 20 years ago might have been considered part of data processing/I.T. then, but the same role could be called business analyst now and be considered part of the business. Also, as others have pointed out, I.T. used to be more stable (there was plenty of chaos and change, but job security was pretty good). Now, with outsourcing, offshoring, etc... not so much. Also, as previously noted by another poster, many I.T. environments have a sweatshop mentality (this could be its own discussion also). I also recall reading recently that there has been downward pressure on tech job salaries (partly due to the aforementioned outsourcing/offshoring, also due to a glut of entrants to the market -- many during the tech bubble). Given the 3 negatives above, one might surmise that women are too smart go into/stay in I.T.
Now for my anecdotal experiences: When I was in mainframe environments, women were pretty well represented in technical roles. In mixed shops, the mainframe groups tended toward a better mix of men and women and the client-server groups were mostly men. Now that I'm working in the lightweight technologies (ok, I might have a slight bias for the big iron), I see fewer women in the workplace, and I think the only resume I've seen from a woman since I've been involved in some of the hiring process was for a split position with both technical and non-tech responsibilities. We hired her and she soon shifted to full time tech duties.
So, maybe the problem is the decline of mainframes (as a percentage of I.T. over all)?
January 6, 2010 at 3:18 pm
The question has been asked 'why should there be a greater number of female programmers? Perhaps they just arent interested.'
There are some hidden assumptions buried in a statement and question like this that can be highlighted if we change the parameters a bit. Imagine a scenario where there was a profession that was almost completely dominated by caucasians. Now try asking the same question and see if it sounds reasonable '....perhaps non whites just arent interested'.
Hmmm
Ive read some research about womens attitudes to IT that indicates that they shy away from it because they perceive that they would not fit into the stereotypical IT environment. To many women IT is not a place they would feel that they belong.
The other big factor IMO is the difficulty associated with taking time off to have children.
January 6, 2010 at 3:19 pm
I tell you what, now that my morning frustration is over with the leak in my kitchen wall instead of going forward with ranting and discussing what we have seen happen in the past let's see if we can offer some solutions; that is what programmers do after all.
(BTW - Ignore my typos, darn wirless keyboard flacky today and just don't have the energy to look back and correct.)
1) Maybe we need to somehow remove some of the geek from computers, as I recall (being a geek and a jock in high school) girls tended to ignore the geeks for the jocks as they viewed the jocks as being big and strong rather than viewing them for the potential life they could provide. I always called dating groups pretty people syndrome.
2) I think the idea of a class on pay negotiation is a must for school. Everyone should know they don't have to settle.
3) Women at an earlier age need to have focus on self sufficients and role models that detract from that should be frowned on by society as a whole. I wouldn't want my daughter (which I don't have) to think she has to find a spouse to take care of her, she should feel she can take care of the both if needs be (especially when the economy slumps like it is now.)
4) We need a few movies about the geek girls who save the world or just rule the day. Ever notice most movies are about the mans success. Remember movies have the ability to change perceptions and in recent years this has started to change.
5) Men who still have them should get rid of the old notions about women and teach their sons to be better than themselves. Anyone can do anything they want in life and within their own limitations (sorry not everyone can carry a tune and they shouldn't be allowed to sing professionally just cause they want to).
6) Look further into the poll to determine what measures need to be researched to get at the root reasons. Again if say in example 80 men and 80 women are qualified in the area but 60 women has decided to be stay at home moms after their children were born (which BTW I stick to the 40 hour rule becuase my family comes first, job is second) then there is no way to make it split evenly 50/50 without just firing some men and lump more work on those remaining.
The goal really should not be equal numbers, the goal should be equal opportunity and treatment for anyone and everyone.
January 6, 2010 at 3:35 pm
bg_elliott (1/6/2010)
Now for my anecdotal experiences: When I was in mainframe environments, women were pretty well represented in technical roles. In mixed shops, the mainframe groups tended toward a better mix of men and women and the client-server groups were mostly men. Now that I'm working in the lightweight technologies (ok, I might have a slight bias for the big iron), I see fewer women in the workplace, and I think the only resume I've seen from a woman since I've been involved in some of the hiring process was for a split position with both technical and non-tech responsibilities. We hired her and she soon shifted to full time tech duties.So, maybe the problem is the decline of mainframes (as a percentage of I.T. over all)?
That is funny you mention as most of the female programmers I dealt with were mainframe. And the reason wasn't mainframe going away but jobs being outsourced and offshored. So we lost a large portion of female programmers as they had no place to go and had no knowledge of alter laguages such as C++, VB, C#, and Java commonly in use on distributed systems. So this may account for a large portion now. Had anyone broke apart stats for Mainframe and Distributed to see if the proverbial eggs in one basket existed, that would be a curiousity and might explain a sudden shift. But thinking about it many of the females I deal with now do reporting projects and even thou they do some SQL, Macro and other types of progrmming not viewed in the normal scope of programming. Could their descriptions just be hiding them now? This is thoery but they had to go somewhere, or did at some point females stop going into the IT field as heavily, or could it be becuase so many jobs (textiles, auto workers, etc) have dried up that more men have shifted into IT jobs causing a sudden rise in men? Could probably come up wih thousands on theories that really do explain why a sudden shift.
January 6, 2010 at 4:09 pm
jen-1118637 (1/6/2010)
Fatal Exception Error (1/6/2010)
Just wow at some of the members here.As for the woman who worked at USPS and ended up on letter duty. I don't think the man was being biased. Me personally being raised as a gentleman, I am going to treat other women like I would want my mother treated and slinging boxes is not something I would have her do. I would have done the same thing and it is not out of bias but respect. This goes out the window if you actually talked to him about this and he ignored it.
Actually it was UPS, but same thing. "Being raised as a gentleman" means being raised to treat women differently, and it's something of a sore spot. Treat the women you love with love, treat your wife or girlfriend romantically, but please don't handle female coworkers with kid gloves. It's not a show of respect to suggest that an area of work is too difficult for a person because she's female.
At UPS, one of the hiring requirements was that you could pick up and handle up to 70 pounds. Once hired it was the rule for all workers that anything over 70 pounds required at least two lifters. As long as I my performance is acceptable, I shouldn't be shuffled off onto lighter duty because of ideas about gender.
This translates exactly into the difficulty with girls' education and women in IT. If you have the girls do easier homework, take less sciency courses, it pushes them away from careers that are rewarding, lucrative, and flexible. If I'm pushed to work customer service or document projects when what I want is the tech side, I lose out on fulfillment and money.
I'm sorry to have to say this, but I can't think of anything about the "gentleman" POV that's conducive to letting women be the best they can be.
(And by the way, my mom slung boxes at the post office for 20 years, and she's doing just fine. 🙂
This was only in reference to the physical aspect and nothing to do with the intellectual side of things. I was not saying women can't sling boxes. I was saying that I would have not had you doing heavy lifting not knowing anything else.
There are some women (whom I know) that would be fine "slinging boxes with the fellas". You have to understand that for every woman like this you have one that will say "Why am I lifting this heavy crap when Bill is shuffling letters". Yes you have hiring requirements but you also have quotas that might have a higher priority. Some requirements are there to cover bases. My last job said 25% travel required. I had the position for one year and spent two days out of town.
Being a gentleman is not about treating women differently. It is about respect. I would not have known I was being disrespectful if I did not know you. I did not see a lifting requirement in your original post but I also forgot about you stating you had to request multiple times to get off letter duty so I can see your issue.
I do understand what you are saying. Thank you for the alternate perspective but please try and see mine.
January 6, 2010 at 4:59 pm
It wasn't Ada King but Ada Byron (her real name) or Ada Lovelace (husband's name) who was the first programmer.
January 6, 2010 at 5:05 pm
It's a feature of new professions that it takes a while to raise the barriers against women. Film directing was the same in the 1910s and 1920s where a lot of major Hollywood films were directed by women. This stopped in the late 1920s when the studios suddenly realised what was going on.
Here in South Australia in the late 1960s female programmers were the only women on equal pay to men because when creating this brand new classification the public service forgot to include a lower pay scale for females. And they/we were hired because the departmental heads didn't realise they shouldn't have.
January 6, 2010 at 6:17 pm
maire (1/6/2010)
It wasn't Ada King but Ada Byron (her real name) or Ada Lovelace (husband's name) who was the first programmer.
I noticed the same error made by, of course, a male writer. You would think that he would at least check the accuracy of his own story. I find it very offensive reading all the posts that attack women as if we are asking for something that we are not capable of taking on. I have personally worked in environments in which I have had to prove my abilities ten times over before gaining the respect that equally qualified male peers received upon walking through the door.
January 6, 2010 at 6:25 pm
When I was the first female IT Manager in the South Australian government, I was told by my CEO when he was explaining why he didn't think much of me "You don't smile enough. In this organisation we like the girls to brighten up the place".
January 6, 2010 at 6:39 pm
"Showing 32" helps in the business world regardless of gender. Accidentally giving someone a dirty look is not a good way to ingratiate oneself to a colleague or customer, either.
The CEO's gender discrimination in your example is obvious, though.
January 6, 2010 at 6:47 pm
Manic Star (1/6/2010)
Lynn Pettis (1/6/2010)
Jen, based on what I have read, I'd enjoy the opportunity to work with you.You'd be welcome here too 🙂
Maybe I'm chiming in maybe a bit late here, but I'd have to agree.
Wayne
Microsoft Certified Master: SQL Server 2008
Author - SQL Server T-SQL Recipes
January 6, 2010 at 7:16 pm
Back in the late 70's or early 80's (the years blur together as they go by faster and faster 🙁 ), I was in college and played D&D with my friends, male and female. I ran across an article on modes of speech differences between American Men and Women. I found it intriguing.
So, to test it out, I made my next D&D character a female. I changed my speech patterns to match the female examples in the article.
Curious to know what happened?
I went from being an alpha player who gave direction to the other players - direction that was typically followed without question - to being totally unheard! That's right. Totally unheard! It was as if I had never spoken.
Over the course of several months of play ( O! for that much free time again! ), I altered my character's speech patterns to my more typical male way of speaking. Things slipped back to normal for me. I was the lead player again.
Same game, same gaming skills, same people playing, very different results based upon "male" or "female" speech patterns.
Is that fair?
Doesn't matter.
It just is.
Communication that does not impart the intended message is failed communication. A good communicator changes the way the deliver the message so it is received correctly. They do not expect the recipients to change.
That's why I explain technical options to business people in terms of money, risk, time (and let them connect the dots on personal managerial prestige) instead of explaining the nuts and bolts of the technical options.
January 6, 2010 at 7:26 pm
Forgot to mention that when I want to tell someone privately, one-on-one, that they're being a jack-@$$ and need to stop whatever they're doing that's making everybody mad, that the "female" modes of speech work extremely well.
But if I want to get a course of action adopted in an open meeting, "male" modes of speech usually work much better.
January 6, 2010 at 9:08 pm
Antares686 (1/6/2010)
nasoto (1/6/2010)
In my last position I made 55% of the male developers' salary (and so did the 1 other woman out of 16 men). Currently I'm at about 75% of the other developers' salary.Now there is the real issue. I don't care how many women worok in a field, if they have the same experience, knowledge, have been at the comapny (or even just the field) and can demonstrate it then why would they not be paid equally. I am sure there are reasons for this, it is just a matter of pinpointing. But a few women I have met in the past compared themselves against others whom had been in the field twice as long so you cannot say starting out you should get a long termers pay.
Another thing I have seen is that many women (and a lot of men even do this) just settle. They don'y negotiate the pay and they don't tend to hop around to show they are willing to leave for better pay. The best pay raise I ever got was when I had another offer on the table. Many of the women I have met are very shy acting and just don't fight for their individual desires very well. And last year in a diversity dicussion this came up as apparently some educational instituions are considering adding couses specifically on contract negotiationing for future employees.
Then of course there is the fear approach many companies play on with the above. Especially now with the economy in a slump like it is. I have had many people tell me that they are ust happy to have a job. I look them in the face (and some have been management) and say, like hell I expect proper payor I will look for something else. Or I will go write my own ticket, lots of opportinty out there.
If you keep finding this to be the case then I suggest look elsewhere. And keep in mind there is nothing holding you from doing this, most companies will soon if not already drop their retirement accounts in favor of 401k so you have to look out for yourself. Businesses are no longer families like they try to use, they are about finding the right suckers to work for the glory of upper management to make large sums of money themselves.
In no way should this kind of treatment be acceptable. Glass ceilings and inequality in pay are signs of the good ol' boy club. I'm not a fan of such thinking.
Jason...AKA CirqueDeSQLeil
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