Women in Technology

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Women in Technology

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DCPeterson SSCoach Points: 15266 More actions · Answer 1

cmcc (1/6/2010)
DC, I totally agree - we're seeing self-selection at work. What I ask is, what is behind this self-selection?
In my generation (baby-boomers educated in the 70s) I saw the gender ratio at 50/50. Equal participation by gender. When I look at foreign applicants today (primarily China, Taiwan and India) I see the same 50/50 split. So the opportunities today appear to be the same as it was when I entered the field - open to all - but only to the foreign candidates.
Look at the colleges today and the field doesn't attract people today as it did in my day. First of all, there are fewer men in college than women. You can google the statistics for yourself. Given the supposed 60/40 split (female majority), we'd expect to see more women going into the field, if the environment was as welcoming as it is in China (today) or in my day.
But we don't see that.
Not only do we not see women going into IT, but we don't see MEN going into IT, either. Somehow, there is a perception that this isn't a field to go into. Sure, I wouldn't argue against the fact that most of the IT students are men; I want to know why there aren't MORE of them. And why did the women self-select out of IT? All the female professionals I work with are very successful at it, so aptitude isn't the issue; there seems to be some barrier to entry. It is working on both male and female students, but more on women.
My question - why aren't college kids selecting IT? (when my generation did)(and foreign students do)
Anyone?
Colleen, DBA

I certainly don't have the answers, however is anyone willing to argue that IT today is even close to what it was 20 or 30 years ago? Not only has the technology undergone a radical transformation, but the working environment did too. Back then IT was a pretty stable environment.

I am not one who subscribes to the idea that men are somehow "more analytical" than women or any other such nonsense, but there are undeniable gender differences. To be sure there are exceptions but that doesn't mean than in the aggregate there aren't differences...

My theory of why there are fewer people and even fewer women entering the IT field in general is that the IT field is pretty chaotic. We are in a constant state of change, this was not true 20 and 30 years ago. People in general tend to seek stability, and I think women do so more than men. If this is the case there is no "solution" because it's systemic. Even increasing financial rewards to attract more people soon runs into the problem of diminishing returns.

/*****************

If most people are not willing to see the difficulty, this is mainly because, consciously or unconsciously, they assume that it will be they who will settle these questions for the others, and because they are convinced of their own capacity to do this. -Friedrich August von Hayek

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support 79032 Newbie Points: 3 More actions · Answer 2

GilaMonster (1/6/2010)
support 79032 (1/6/2010)
Anyone care to address the fact that there is no-where near a 50/50 division in child custody and yet we are debating how to make more jobs for women when they are actively encouraging sexism in the family courts?
This is a SQL server site, not a politics or law forum. If you want to discuss law or politics (for whatever country you live in) I suggest you look for an appropriate forum for the topics you wish to discuss.

EXACTLY. It is an SQL server forum. So why are you bringing up sexism or a perception of it?

That the article is questionable is a definite. That you have exhibited not alone that you cannot see the hypocracy in your comment above and your selective sexism is well illustrated.

If sexism is the topic then I ask you again why both men and women are not given parity in child custody.

If sexism is not the topic then you should shut up and stop bleating. We all work in the real world and I have never had a job application from a women in 100s of CVs for tech positions, if something is broken it's the manner in which women raise little girls, especially as men have been ostracised from their childrens lives.

As regards the usual low brow references to nationality, I'm referring to the USA.

Nowever only a complete xenophobe (named after Queen Xeno a notorious bigot) could wish to drag nationality into an unrelated discourse.

Gail Shaw SSC Guru Points: 1004504 More actions · Answer 3

support 79032 (1/6/2010)
As regards the usual low brow references to nationality, I'm referring to the USA.
Nowever only a complete xenophobe (named after Queen Xeno a notorious bigot) could wish to drag nationality into an unrelated discourse.

Excuse me? I'm not in the same country as you are. Not even the same continent or hemisphere. How on earth could I have a discussion with you on child custody or law without bringing nationality into it seeing as the laws I live under are totally different to the ones you live under?

I'm personally calling troll here. It doesn't appear to me that you want a discussion at all, but rather want to just insult people.

Gail Shaw
Microsoft Certified Master: SQL Server, MVP, M.Sc (Comp Sci)
SQL In The Wild: Discussions on DB performance with occasional diversions into recoverability

We walk in the dark places no others will enter
We stand on the bridge and no one may pass

Johan van Tonder Old Hand Points: 371 More actions · Answer 4

verena_techie-1005324 (1/6/2010)
My brain does work differently from most men, I can look at a problem logically, but I also look at it creatively. This is what often makes a woman a superior IT candidate........
..... I hope that all the men reading this can open their minds to us as equal partners and see that while we are different, we have a place in IT and we can make a team successful with our skills.

All I can say to that is... *SIGH*, as do I to most of the other comment here just fueling the gender-wars.

Looks like "support 79032" and especially "Antares686" (and perhaps most of Gail Shaw's comments, except the ones ignoring the "off-topicness" of some the others' comments, and attacking support 79032 for rightly pointing out the intentions of the original article), are the only enlightened ones here. (Sorry I may have missed some other good one's I really try to read ALL of the replies.)

Oh, and Phil Factor... I am still waiting on your response as to what exactly do you suggest being done to "reverse the trend" 🙂 I suppose some more "affirmative-action"?

verena_techie-1005324 SSC Enthusiast Points: 119 More actions · Answer 5

DCPeterson (1/6/2010)

cmcc (1/6/2010)
My theory of why there are fewer people and even fewer women entering the IT field in general is that the IT field is pretty chaotic. We are in a constant state of change, this was not true 20 and 30 years ago. People in general tend to seek stability, and I think women do so more than men. If this is the case there is no "solution" because it's systemic. Even increasing financial rewards to attract more people soon runs into the problem of diminishing returns.

IT has ALWAYS been a field of constant change. It has always been chaotic. It was tougher back then too because you had to understand the bit level of computers and manipulate the OS in ways it was not designed to. I have been in IT since 1988 and there has not been any difference in the amount of chaos and change, only that change is expected.

Can anyone prove there are less women in IT now than then? I was one of 3 women doing full time in our program. Is it so different now? By the way, I graduated 2nd in my class. The first was a male. I was female with 3 young kids at home to deal. The men at first could not figure out how I was always getting the top or 2nd top mark. Eventually they wanted to work with me and study with me. You don't have to say how good you are because if you are good it will come through.

I fought even in university with instructors that could not accept that a female was top of the class. One instructor actually marked me down and also tried to trip me up whenever he could. My classmates told me that he said he was going to get me! I handed in a team assignment and when my 5 letters (he didn't know they were mine) got A and the other 5 got a B I realized for sure he was marking me down because when he knew who handed items in it was the other way around. What can you do? It brought my GPA down but it was still great. I feel that sort of thing got me used to what I had to face in the work place.

I never had a pregnancy leave and I think we all wish for a leave and are jealous of the people who get them. I know a woman who was hired same time as me and had 3 leaves. She was still a top developer and kept up with her job even while off. I find women are just as dedicated and maybe even try harder to ensure that they are accepted. I have slept with computers in my room while doing testing cycles to ensure that I found all errors before live date. I am not adverse to getting my hands dirty when I need to learn a new skill and will read everything available until I fully understand it. I have found many issues with software that even the company testers did not find and fixed their bugs, specifically an ODBC driver that interfaced with my software and had a bug. I worked with the company to find the issue and I am the one who figured out what was wrong. I think women are often driven to excel given their circumstances.

I wish everyone luck in this industry! It's very rewarding for those who find their niche.

Verena Techie

verena_techie-1005324 SSC Enthusiast Points: 119 More actions · Answer 6

Johan van Tonder (1/6/2010)
verena_techie-1005324 (1/6/2010)
My brain does work differently from most men, I can look at a problem logically, but I also look at it creatively. This is what often makes a woman a superior IT candidate........
..... I hope that all the men reading this can open their minds to us as equal partners and see that while we are different, we have a place in IT and we can make a team successful with our skills.
All I can say to that is... *SIGH*, as do I to most of the other comment here just fueling the gender-wars.
Looks like "support 79032" and especially "Antares686" (and perhaps most of Gail Shaw's comments, except the ones ignoring the "off-topicness" of some the others' comments, and attacking support 79032 for rightly pointing out the intentions of the original article), are the only enlightened ones here. (Sorry I may have missed some other good one's I really try to read ALL of the replies.)
Oh, and Phil Factor... I am still waiting on your response as to what exactly do you suggest being done to "reverse the trend" 🙂 I suppose some more "affirmative-action"?

My quote is out of context... Walk a mile in my shoes, then you might be enlightened too. There is no sense in saying women are exactly the same as men, or that the person next to you is experiencing the same reality as you, man or woman. The key is understanding and open mindedness. What is it you were saying?

sreid08 SSC Veteran Points: 290 More actions · Answer 7

ivanarj (1/6/2010)
Unfortunately, in my 20+ years of experience as software developer (started at 13 years old age to work professionally - for money), I'm still waiting to see the first lady programmer. I'm not talking about seeing a lady that is working and doing the job. I'm talking about seeing a lady, that I can recognize as a true programmer. I thought once that I have met one, but it turned out that I was mistaken.
So, why we "should clearly do something"? There seems to be no such thing as lady programmer nowadays. I don't know why and I don't think I'm a sexist. It is only an observation.

What the heck does all that mean?? 'A lady that you can recognize as a true programmer?'

Sherri

A programmer

ManicStar SSCoach Points: 17992 More actions · Answer 8

sreid08 (1/6/2010)
ivanarj (1/6/2010)
Unfortunately, in my 20+ years of experience as software developer (started at 13 years old age to work professionally - for money), I'm still waiting to see the first lady programmer. I'm not talking about seeing a lady that is working and doing the job. I'm talking about seeing a lady, that I can recognize as a true programmer. I thought once that I have met one, but it turned out that I was mistaken.
So, why we "should clearly do something"? There seems to be no such thing as lady programmer nowadays. I don't know why and I don't think I'm a sexist. It is only an observation.
What the heck does all that mean?? 'A lady that you can recognize as a true programmer?'
Sherri
A programmer

That means the original poster was a form of Trollus UnderBridgedus.

ManicStar SSCoach Points: 17992 More actions · Answer 9

GilaMonster (1/6/2010)
support 79032 (1/6/2010)
As regards the usual low brow references to nationality, I'm referring to the USA.
Nowever only a complete xenophobe (named after Queen Xeno a notorious bigot) could wish to drag nationality into an unrelated discourse.
Excuse me? I'm not in the same country as you are. Not even the same continent or hemisphere. How on earth could I have a discussion with you on child custody or law without bringing nationality into it seeing as the laws I live under are totally different to the ones you live under?
I'm personally calling troll here. It doesn't appear to me that you want a discussion at all, but rather want to just insult people.

Considering he just joined the forum today...i too call Troll.

SQLRNNR SSC Guru Points: 281334 More actions · Answer 10

Interesting article. More interesting thread. I am stunned by the "Professional" Community and by the some of the denizens of SSC. Way too much personal bias without logical thought has been brought up in the discussion.

A couple of points of interest to me.

1. There has been a percentage decline for the statistic "Women in IT." My curiosity is: what are the actual numbers differences between the date ranges. I expect many more men have decided to go into IT and many of them have done it due to a necessity and did so since it was the booming market.

2. What is the employment rate (total) of women now versus back then?

I have had the opportunity to work with several women over the years. Some were some of the worst in IT and some were some of the best in IT. As another has already noted - stupidity is not sex-biased. Here at SSC and in the SQL community we have the opportunity to mingle with some of the best (Gail, Kalen, Kimberly, and Michelle to name a few - and not all of them are at SSC).

One person recounted experiences she had with being sabotaged by the male dominated shop. This is one of those things that falls into the stupidity classification. I too was once sabotaged and did the same thing - set up an audit trail. My saboteurs - a team of two (one was my female manager, and the other was a female sidekick). That was really stupid on their part - audit logs favored my version of the story. If it had been a team of male saboteurs, I would have been less polite - and it would have still been really stupid.

I currently work with a female developer who is lights out good. She gets the same compliments from the rest of the male cohorts here.

Thanks to those who conducted themselves with courtesy and professionalism on this thread.

Jason...AKA CirqueDeSQLeil
_______________________________________________
I have given a name to my pain...MCM SQL Server, MVP
SQL RNNR
Posting Performance Based Questions - Gail Shaw[/url]
Learn Extended Events

GSquared SSC Guru Points: 260824 More actions · Answer 11

support 79032 (1/6/2010)
Nowever only a complete xenophobe (named after Queen Xeno a notorious bigot) could wish to drag nationality into an unrelated discourse.

Whoah! "Queen Xeno"??? Where did you dig that up?

"Xenophobia" comes from Greek. "Xenos" means "foreign" or "different", and "phobos" means "fear", thus "xenophobia" is a compound word which means "fear of what is foreign or different".

I'm going to assume that "nowever" is a typo for "however", but the "xeno" thing is completely false data. Did you just make it up to try to make some sort of point, or is this something some teacher mislead you on, or what?

- Gus "GSquared", RSVP, OODA, MAP, NMVP, FAQ, SAT, SQL, DNA, RNA, UOI, IOU, AM, PM, AD, BC, BCE, USA, UN, CF, ROFL, LOL, ETC
Property of The Thread

"Nobody knows the age of the human race, but everyone agrees it's old enough to know better." - Anon

ryan.mcatee SSC Eights! Points: 860 More actions · Answer 12

support 79032 (1/6/2010)
Or perhaps sexism is OK if it a matter of telling men that they can't can't look after their children?
Of course what is *really* important in a basically anti-men and and anti-children pro-women society where millions of children are forcibly seperated from their fathers by women who initiate divorce is -are there enough women writing SQL scripts?
This kind of article just makes one realise how sexist a society we live in -sexist against men.
Want better health care, longer life expectancy, more time with your kids, less chance of a criminal conviction? Best be a woman.
As regards the individual who stated that she was asked to leave an IT team because of sexism - maybe they just could not stand you - you might want to watch a few episodes of the 'IT Crowd' to get the gist of why.

Facepalm

I'm sorry, I realize this reply is probably breaking all kinds of TOS rules or whatever... and if it gets deleted, that's just okay. But man, making this a gender partisan thing is just a failure of epic proportions. Women are not 'advantaged' and I'm not convinced men are all that advantaged these days. I've seen lots of cases where the kids go to the father in divorce cases... which is way way way off-topic, anyways.

Dave-3000 SSCertifiable Points: 6186 More actions · Answer 13

jen-1118637 (1/6/2010)
First, a non-IT example: I worked at Wendy's for two years in high school. My favorite station was grill, but they consistently gave it to whatever guy was on duty, and put me on the cash register, because "customers would rather talk to a pretty girl". Cooking meat is apparently a manly duty.

Only when the grill is outdoors. 😉

There is no "i" in team, but idiot has two.

SQLRNNR SSC Guru Points: 281334 More actions · Answer 14

Dave-148053 (1/6/2010)
jen-1118637 (1/6/2010)
First, a non-IT example: I worked at Wendy's for two years in high school. My favorite station was grill, but they consistently gave it to whatever guy was on duty, and put me on the cash register, because "customers would rather talk to a pretty girl". Cooking meat is apparently a manly duty.
Only when the grill is outdoors. 😉

Maybe true - but my wife grills my steak to perfection 😀

Jason...AKA CirqueDeSQLeil
_______________________________________________
I have given a name to my pain...MCM SQL Server, MVP
SQL RNNR
Posting Performance Based Questions - Gail Shaw[/url]
Learn Extended Events

Johan van Tonder Old Hand Points: 371 More actions · Answer 15

verena_techie-1005324 (1/6/2010)
My quote is out of context... Walk a mile in my shoes, then you might be enlightened too. There is no sense in saying women are exactly the same as men, or that the person next to you is experiencing the same reality as you, man or woman. The key is understanding and open mindedness. What is it you were saying?

How is my quoting you out of context? Go read your own words again. Neither did I suggest that men and women are OR are not exactly equal. Did I hit a nerve? I agree with DCPeterson that there are undeniable differences between genders, but intelligence and the capability to develop excellent software and database applications are none of them.

I am sorry about the way you have experienced mistreatment from men because of bias. I don't stand for that. I simply look at some of these replies and think, what is the point of all this?

Manic Star sites support 79032's supposed "whining" post about his unfair treatment in the family courts, and responds with "Poor baby, is that what you want me to say? Well its not happening." I could have responded to your posts the same way, but I choose not to because I wish no one any unfair treatment based on gender, male or female. There are just as much bias against men these days than there are against women.

By the way, DCPeterson, your argument about "self-selection" makes perfect sense 🙂