January 6, 2010 at 9:25 am
There's a reason I'm leading the web development architecture at my company, and it has nothing to do with gender. All the other developers here are male, yet I'm the most senior web architect and I'm not male. If I wanted to be like some of the posters I would use that as evidence that women are superior programmers to men, instead of just saying that in this instance, the superior programmer is female.
There are good and bad developers of both genders, all nationalities, some with degrees and some without. Some women have experienced discrimination, and it's a shame. I haven't and my career has been just fine based on merit.
I challenge the poster who insists there are "no good female programmers" to prove it. Unfortunately they cannot prove it until they have evaluated every single female practioner. Whereas luckily the inverse is not true - to prove that women *CAN* be good programmers only takes one example. And we have several on this board.
So take that in your pipe and smoke it.
--
Anye Mercy
"Service Unavailable is not an Error" -- John, ENOM support
"You keep using that word. I do not think it means what you think it means." -- Inigo Montoya in "Princess Bride"
"Civilization exists by geologic consent, subject to change without notice." -- Will Durant
January 6, 2010 at 9:28 am
I'm stunned to see the sexist remarks in response to the editorial on Women in Technology.
There are not a lot of truly talented programmers of either sex. Fortunately, most programming tasks don't require more than adequate ability. I suppose this is true in any profession.
I think software development, as normally practiced, is isolating and emotionally barren. And I think that doesn't appeal as much to the emotionally balanced individual.
Male bias in software development is nothing compared to hardware engineering or hard sciences. In the 80's, I was subjected to the nonsensical hoo ha of sexism but it was nothing compared to what my astrophysicist friends had to go through.
I am fortunate presently to work in an environment where there are more women than usual - and more older women. Consequently, people tend to be judged on their capabilities not extraneous characteristics.
Since younger people seem to be less crippled by stupid prejudices of every kind, I can't account for the lack of young women in math, science and technology - or minorities for that matter.
January 6, 2010 at 9:29 am
First: Gail, I agree with everything you've said so far. Now, for my own two cents...
Why are we making a deal out of women in technology? When an arena is predisposed to favor a certain groups - say, whites, or males, or Americans - then we make an effort to make the arena more accessible to the marginalized group because (a) it's fair, and (b) it's beneficial...to the arena and to the people involved, on both sides.
We're still coming off a very, very long stretch of favoring the Alpha group (and yes, in Western society that's historically been white males) and disenfranchising everyone else. The situation is exponentially better for women, blacks, the disabled, and other minorities than it was even 50 years ago, absolutely. That doesn't mean that all our problems are solved. In this case, women still have trouble getting into high-paying technical careers for various reasons: there's the general expectation that a woman should do "something easier", that we're not as good at critical thinking, and so on and on.
Let's take me as an example. First, a non-IT example: I worked at Wendy's for two years in high school. My favorite station was grill, but they consistently gave it to whatever guy was on duty, and put me on the cash register, because "customers would rather talk to a pretty girl". Cooking meat is apparently a manly duty. And when I worked throwing boxes at UPS in college, I continually had to fight to be off of letter duty; I could hold my own perfectly well (and I really preferred) pushing boxes out of the planes, but they continually tried to give me the lighter work.
I've been around computers since I was 4. I took two years of programming in high school, and majored in programming in college. At best, the women-to-men ratio was 1:6...on average, I'd say more like 1:12. There's a LOT of pressure - usually not explicit, but very subtle and unconscious - that programming and databases are something that men do, not women.
If I go off and become a business analyst, or a documentation specialist, or a receptionist, my salary is cut in half, no joke. We're all unhappy that women make less than men, and this is one of the reasons.
So: Equality shouldn't mean being unfair to the alpha group (so to speak) in favor of the rest. Equality SHOULD mean a real, equal chance. We're lucky to be at the stage where we're working on subtle, unconscious assumptions, as opposed to legislated and socially accepted ostracism. So, let's be aware of the assumptions, and work on them.
January 6, 2010 at 9:30 am
If there previously were 40% and now are 20% it indicates that there's some bias at work. You can't say that women aren't interested, if that was the case, that 40% would not have occurred in the past. Maybe there's some cultural bias that's people's interests away from IT. If that's the case, we could be losing potentially top people who are interested but who avoid the profession because of some bias, and that's bad for the profession as a whole.
This is a classic example of the residual fallacy at work. No, it is NOT indicative that there is some bias at work. It is more likely that there is self selection at work here with fewer women CHOOSING on their own accord to pursue different careers. Why is it automatically assumed that if there isn't proportional representation, there must therefore be a problem? The residual fallacy is well known in statistics and science, but it is selectively ignored in cases like this by those who wish to use it as a tool to reinforce their own world-view and dare I say, biases.
Why do we never hear that it's a problem that education, sociology and psychology are dominated by women even though women still account for a minority of the workforce? Using the residual fallacy, we would have to conclude that there are "biases" at work here that present a "problem" that must be overcome somehow. In reality, once again, there are undoubtedly complex social forces at work, but ultimately, it comes down to self selection. Men tend to CHOOSE other careers.
I've never seen any studies on it, but in my experience women tend to dominate in the areas of project management and business analyst positions.
So what if programming is dominated by men? To all of these situations I say "So What?" Let people choose what they want to do, choose what you want to do, and stop wringing your hands about other people's choices.
/*****************
If most people are not willing to see the difficulty, this is mainly because, consciously or unconsciously, they assume that it will be they who will settle these questions for the others, and because they are convinced of their own capacity to do this. -Friedrich August von Hayek
*****************/
January 6, 2010 at 9:32 am
First, I make no pretense at being a "lady". I don't have the patience or the ability to be diplomatic that being a "lady" requires. I am a woman, yes, but hardly a lady.
I have been a developer for 14 years now. I graduated with a B.A. in Computer Science, but aside from the theory, very little that I learned was of any use in the world outside of academia. When I left school, I had no clue what a database was, and I got my first job (which happened to be as a database developer) because I proved in the interview that, while I didn't understand the specific technology, I was good at thinking logically and applying that logic to my code.
Of the good and committed developers that I work with now, I'd say that more than half are female, and I think that this is due to several of the unfortunate things that I have read in the comments. Most of the women I have worked for or with have felt, be it realistic or not, that we have had to prove ourselves to our superiors because of our gender, that we could do the work as well as any man in the same position. Having that hanging over your head will make you much more conscientious about your work.
roger.plowman (1/6/2010)
The love of the craft is what separates the "true" (rolling eyes) programmer from the rest. If you don't feel delighted every single day diving into code, why are you wasting your precious life? I've been lucky in that programming is not only my profession, it's my passion.
Anyone, male or female, that shares that passion will tend toward the exceptional. How can they not? If you don't love your craft, (whatever craft it might be) how can you possibly give your best?
Amen! I do what I do because I enjoy it. It has nothing to do with where the dangly bits are on my body, it has to do with a love for logic and for making things work by following that logic.
jparra (1/6/2010)
Several years ago educators in Florida were concerned that male students were scoring higher in Science and Math than female students. It was determined that teachers had greater math and science expectations for male students, and higher language expectations for female students. There was a strong push to change the perception among teachers, and encourage teachers to have the same high standards for both sexes. In the past couple of years, female students have scored higher in Math and Science than male students in Florida to the point that there is a concern that male students need a higher level of encouragement.
This resonates so much with me. When I was in high school, I was doing incredibly well in math and science. I would tutor friends in math classes because I both understood the subject and could explain it so my friends understood it when the teacher couldn't manage it. I discovered towards the end of the last year that I was at my first high school (a private school where classes were gender-segregated) that the chemistry teacher had been giving the girls' classes easier tests. Lots of people would've been happy with that (after all, easier tests mean easier As, right?), but I was just infuriated. How dare he assume that I needed an easier test to do well in science?!? And that's the same mentality that I've seen in most good female developers: ignore my gender, that has nothing to do with my ability. Judge me on what I can do rather than what I am.
Jennifer Levy (@iffermonster)
January 6, 2010 at 9:32 am
I've got to chime in as a woman programmer. In my 15 years of experience in IT, I've worked with 3 women coders, multiple women analysts and managers, some of whom were fantastic at what they did and some of whom were horrible, but 3 developers. One was fantastic, a lead on her team, one was horrible, didn't have any motivation and never completed what she was hired to do, and one very young, but capable and eager to learn.
I've also observed that the young attractive developer can't get a lot done, because the male team members keep wanting to talk about any and everything, but that's not her fault.
I think that mainly the lack of women programmers stems from life, even if a women starts in the field after college, if she chooses to have a family, she's going to lose time in her industry, even if it's just a short maternity leave but worse if she wants to spend time at home with the babies, and keeping up is hard. Most women end up giving up on the struggle to stay afloat, after earning respect it's hard to have to go through the whole process again to regain it because you took a couple of months off.
I've been lucky enough to not experience much discrimination, however, I could also chalk that up to being not very observant considering I just don't care! 😛
January 6, 2010 at 9:43 am
jen-1118637 (1/6/2010)
We're lucky to be at the stage where we're working on subtle, unconscious assumptions, as opposed to legislated and socially accepted ostracism.
Depends where you are in the world.
Gail Shaw
Microsoft Certified Master: SQL Server, MVP, M.Sc (Comp Sci)
SQL In The Wild: Discussions on DB performance with occasional diversions into recoverability
January 6, 2010 at 9:51 am
DC, I totally agree - we're seeing self-selection at work. What I ask is, what is behind this self-selection?
In my generation (baby-boomers educated in the 70s) I saw the gender ratio at 50/50. Equal participation by gender. When I look at foreign applicants today (primarily China, Taiwan and India) I see the same 50/50 split. So the opportunities today appear to be the same as it was when I entered the field - open to all - but only to the foreign candidates.
Look at the colleges today and the field doesn't attract people today as it did in my day. First of all, there are fewer men in college than women. You can google the statistics for yourself. Given the supposed 60/40 split (female majority), we'd expect to see more women going into the field, if the environment was as welcoming as it is in China (today) or in my day.
But we don't see that.
Not only do we not see women going into IT, but we don't see MEN going into IT, either. Somehow, there is a perception that this isn't a field to go into. Sure, I wouldn't argue against the fact that most of the IT students are men; I want to know why there aren't MORE of them. And why did the women self-select out of IT? All the female professionals I work with are very successful at it, so aptitude isn't the issue; there seems to be some barrier to entry. It is working on both male and female students, but more on women.
My question - why aren't college kids selecting IT? (when my generation did)(and foreign students do)
Anyone?
Colleen, DBA
January 6, 2010 at 10:00 am
Anyone?
Colleen,
You might like reading the book "Unlocking the Clubhouse". It can be purchased for ~$10 shipped from Amazon.
It is a book that uses Carnegie Melon's CS program as a longitudinal study.
Hope that helps,
January 6, 2010 at 10:01 am
GilaMonster (1/6/2010)
jen-1118637 (1/6/2010)
We're lucky to be at the stage where we're working on subtle, unconscious assumptions, as opposed to legislated and socially accepted ostracism.Depends where you are in the world.
Agreed...I should have emphasized that I'm mostly talking about America, and places with like thinking. (Not being the egocentric American, just speaking to my experiences.)
January 6, 2010 at 10:03 am
Cool! Will do - I have nephews and nieces in the 25-15 age range, all worried about jobs and careers, and only one going into IT. Perplexes me.
Colleen
January 6, 2010 at 10:12 am
Well done, Gail! Thoroughtly aree with you!
January 6, 2010 at 10:14 am
I agree with Jen-574053. I am a woman Database Architect/Admin with my roots in development/programming. I have been in every area of IT. I have experienced all the issues she spoke of, especially men who are intimidated by a woman coming up the ranks and doing the job better than them. I have been sabatoged and fired because of men being jealous.
I don't blame women for not wanting to get into this industry, I've been in it since 1988 and it's gotten somewhat better but not entirely. It depends on the company culture and acceptance of prejudice.
Back in the COBOL days when I went to school it was NOT 50/50 women and men, I have never seen this in any schools I've experienced. I do think some education to women in high school about our career is a good thing and I have done this personally. We do need to stress that you need to be a strong person who is able to discern when they are being prejudiced against and to stand up for your rights or move to another job and know when one decision is better than another.
My brain does work differently from most men, I can look at a problem logically, but I also look at it creatively. This is what often makes a woman a superior IT candidate. The men I have worked with that are very technically able are not multi dimensioned and cannot work with people or share information. I have to agree that men like to work in the 'guts' more but this is not required for most jobs. I have solved many problems that men gave up on and I keep my customer happy at the same time.
I hope that all the men reading this can open their minds to us as equal partners and see that while we are different, we have a place in IT and we can make a team successful with our skills. Stop making crude remarks and let us get on with being the best we can be.
After what I've been through in 20 years, I'm not sure I would recommend this career to anyone, man or woman, as it's a very intense career without all the issues for a woman. But I do love to find the root cause of an issue when no one else can, to make a difference to peoples work days by saving them time and money and to find anomalies and provide information that changes a company for the better.
Acceptance and understanding will bring change. I hope for it every day. Today I am managing my own IT company and running into similar issues, but it's my job! I love it.
Verena
January 6, 2010 at 10:16 am
Thank you Phil for starting this discussion.
I am another 40-something female programmer (I balk at the term 'lady' and the image of white gloves and frilly frocks it invokes.) I have worked in technological fields for 20 years now and I have a few observations to share.
First of all, I started my career with a degree in Math which included Pascal and Basic. All of my programming skills have been self-taught or learned (very rapidly, I might add) on the job. The assumption that women do not enjoy pursuing new skills on their own and require the hand-holding of a structured training program is erroneous. My strong background in statistics and logic helped me in this area, but I do not believe that lack of motivation to learn is at the root of the issue.
Secondly there is outright disparity and maltreatment of women in technical fields by management and coworkers in many places. I will give a few examples that I have personally witnessed.
My experience with gender discrimination begins in college. This was a small private liberal arts school in the south. There were professors who refused to work with me as a work-study grader for their freaking algebra classes because I was female. My first advisor actually recommended I change my major because I wasn't a 'good fit' for the department. I finally changed my advisor to the solo female math professor and ended up as the only woman Math major in my graduating class. Funny how there were no women who were a 'good fit' for that department.
At the very beginning of my career I was witness to some stark discrimination against the very woman (programmer) that was training me. This was a well-known international technology company at the time. While the main managers involved were men, there was even another woman on the management team that apparently went along to get along and avoid becoming a target herself. Eventually the programmer was forced out over a medical leave of absence (this was before FMLA for you fellow Americans). I was in an entry level position so was spared any of the flack myself, but I left that company as soon as I could.
I ended up working for large financial corporations for a decade; it was a completely different experience. There was an almost even split between women and men in these departments. I had some excellent managers who appreciated my background in math and allowed me to progress freely. I found my mentors there and really grew my skill sets both technically and interpersonally. I was supported through the birth of my children (something I note other posters don't approve of) and promoted repeatedly for the quality of my work. I now consider this the halcyon days of my career; up until that last merger, I thought I would be one of the long-term survivors. I traveled extensively for them, covered on-call, taught technical classes, and wrote everything from ETL using COBOL and DB2 cursors to a technical support website to Essbase cubes. This chapter of my life cemented my determination to stay on the technical side of things. I participated in some huge projects done successfully and really learned the ropes.
I moved out into the consulting world about 5 years ago. Needless to say things are more cutthroat out here without the corporate protection I had grown used to. Since that time I have also been the target of coworker sabotage, having my work destroyed, my project input ignored, and my ideas stolen. This is not rampant, but persistent enough to be a major impediment in some cases. Spending months on system design only to have the person who is supposed to be helping you build the object scrap it and start coding off the cuff as soon as you turn away is infuriating to say the least. The frustration of having issues you detected months ago recur because the documentation you made was 'lost' by the person you reported it to, or having another’s manager claim they came up with a system improvement you recommended to them, or even having your own words repeated back to you IN THE SAME MEETING as a new proposal is indescribable.
While I can't prove that any of this was purely sexism, I can say that I did not see these men doing the same thing to each other. And it is human nature to strike out at those who are different. I am the only woman (consultant or staff) in the entire IT dept on at my current client. I was at my last client. I suspect I will be at the next client. IT is a demanding field, and I must say that my husband’s job flexibility has taken a lot of the pressure off of me as he is able to stay home with the kids when they are sick and pick them up after school. Not many women have this kind of support. But that’s not to say they don’t deserve it or want it.
I believe it is important for us to get out in the world and show the next generation that women have something to contribute. I work with Girl Scouts and with my children’s school to attend career workshops and speak to girls about careers in programming and engineering. I have cheered at improvements in the treatment of women in the technical majors at my university. I represent at my local SSUG. And though I haven’t yet, my goals this year include joining a Women in Technology group.
I love my job, I love SQL, I love relational theory, and I love the thrill of the big breakthrough. I will keep on doing it, despite the static I may get from those who would prefer I not interfere with their manly profession. I have a family to support after all. ;^)
😎 Kate The Great :w00t:
If you don't have time to do it right the first time, where will you find time to do it again?
January 6, 2010 at 10:16 am
I have noticed that when I sit in a room of "developers", I am often the only woman there. I feel two ways about this - 1) disappointed that there aren't more women at my level and 2) special/privileged to be "one of the guys". Luckily, I work for a company that values my soft skills and my technical skills and gives me the opportunity to excel at both.
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