January 6, 2010 at 8:46 am
ROTFLMAO So true, so true
January 6, 2010 at 8:48 am
support 79032 (1/6/2010)
Anyone care to address the fact that there is no-where near a 50/50 division in child custody and yet we are debating how to make more jobs for women when they are actively encouraging sexism in the family courts?
This is a SQL server site, not a politics or law forum. If you want to discuss law or politics (for whatever country you live in) I suggest you look for an appropriate forum for the topics you wish to discuss.
Gail Shaw
Microsoft Certified Master: SQL Server, MVP, M.Sc (Comp Sci)
SQL In The Wild: Discussions on DB performance with occasional diversions into recoverability
January 6, 2010 at 8:48 am
Shaun McGuile (1/6/2010)
Manic Star (1/6/2010)
MelS-512196 (1/6/2010)
Just as a point of speculation, we might ask why there are so many more young boys than young girls getting lost in the world of video games...Well...why are there not more boys playing with Barbie :)?
Psychologically girls toys are dull...they are not cars/guns/aeroplanes/etc - they are just dolls - to a 3 year old male totally dull
Not when they plot to take down the neighbor boy's GI Joe fort.... 😀
January 6, 2010 at 8:50 am
GilaMonster (1/6/2010)
Manic Star (1/6/2010)
Except for some locker room behavior at a few clients, I've not noticed any serious discrimination in my 20 years in the business.Same here. Worst I've had is people assuming I'm the HR rep (in an interview) or a project manager (in a meeting) or people assuming that I'm the token chair-warmer employed to satisfy the equality act. That usually doesn't take long to resolve.
Nikkio?
January 6, 2010 at 8:56 am
Manic Star (1/6/2010)
Shaun McGuile (1/6/2010)
Manic Star (1/6/2010)
MelS-512196 (1/6/2010)
Just as a point of speculation, we might ask why there are so many more young boys than young girls getting lost in the world of video games...Well...why are there not more boys playing with Barbie :)?
Psychologically girls toys are dull...they are not cars/guns/aeroplanes/etc - they are just dolls - to a 3 year old male totally dull
Not when they plot to take down the neighbor boy's GI Joe fort.... 😀
Heck, GI Joe always got the girl when I was a child! Ken was a wuss, couldn't even hold a rifle.
January 6, 2010 at 9:00 am
Andrew Gothard-467944 (1/6/2010)
GilaMonster (1/6/2010)
Manic Star (1/6/2010)
Except for some locker room behavior at a few clients, I've not noticed any serious discrimination in my 20 years in the business.Same here. Worst I've had is people assuming I'm the HR rep (in an interview) or a project manager (in a meeting) or people assuming that I'm the token chair-warmer employed to satisfy the equality act. That usually doesn't take long to resolve.
Nikkio?
Huh? Sorry, don't understand what you're asking.
Gail Shaw
Microsoft Certified Master: SQL Server, MVP, M.Sc (Comp Sci)
SQL In The Wild: Discussions on DB performance with occasional diversions into recoverability
January 6, 2010 at 9:04 am
As a 40+ female Web Developer, I've run across both males who were smart enough to realize what you have in your pants not a programmer make and males who were of the "men think more logically" crowd. I have found the latter group to be shortsighted in other areas as well, so if they don't want to hire/work with me, they are doing me a favor because they would be miserable people to work with/for anyway.
Many things may be gender-biased, but stupidity certainly isn't one of them. 😉
January 6, 2010 at 9:05 am
I've been a programmer for 15+ years. Most of the time I've been the only female on the team. The other female programmers I've known have moved on to head hunting, Quality/Testing, Business Analysis, project management. One worked her way through the ranks to CEO. One works at her kids school. Another works with exchange students. Only a few are still programmers.
The worst part is the hours. Most programmer jobs are 60+ hours a week, every week. The other killer is that you have to keep up with technology on your own time on top of the full time job. I took a pay cut to work 40 hrs/wk with some flexibility in my hours.
January 6, 2010 at 9:06 am
Please use correct names for women you mention in your article.
"Eva Barbara Liskov"? Do you mean Eva Tardos?
"Barbara H. Liskov"? Do you mean Barbara Jane Liskov?
etc...
January 6, 2010 at 9:11 am
Just a word from me, the individual who was asked to 'leave an IT team' because I'm a girl. This has happened to me twice, the same thing:
It's not true to say I was 'asked to leave'. I didn't even get in the door, and in fact, they hadn't met me before. They were quite specific in saying that a female would upset the male equilibrium of the team, so they would prefer a male onsite. They were quite specific that they didn't want a woman working beside a lot of men; based purely on my biology, they had never even laid eyes on me.
Each time, my boss told them that he couldn't believe that he was being asked to do this. He also pointed out that if they didn't take me, that he didn't want to deal with them and they could go elsewhere.
Eventually, common sense won out, and I delivered each project - on time, on budget, and to their spec, successfully. This was despite the fact that my work was constantly being sabotaged, deleted and replaced with junk. Eventually I kept an 'audit trail' of my work so I could prove what I did.
The other side of the coin was that it added pressure onto me: I felt I had to prove myself. Now, I think also that each customer had a point: by including me as part of the team, I was being subjected to bullying behaviour, and I see now that the management wanted to protect me from the inevitable. I suppose that they knew what their IT team were capable of, which I didn't.
At the end of the day, I am glad that I won out and delivered. However, there was absolutely no need for this at all and surely they could have at least tried to enjoy working with someone who loves to create code as much as I do?
January 6, 2010 at 9:14 am
It's amazing to see some of the responses here.
Men and women can both work in IT, and both excel. I doubt there is any real difference in their physical abilities to succeed, on average.
I constantly see people want to say that we shouldn't focus on this. That we ought to focus on everyone getting better in IT. Nothing wrong with this, and please feel free to help there. However women do have issues, especially with perceptions (as geeks) and the locker room mentalities. That does cause problems, and while it might not in your location/job, it does in many places.
Nothing wrong with those of us that feel this way trying to help more women become a part of IT. Attacking that seems silly, narrow-minded, and a little sexist.
If you don't think women need any help to get interested in IT, don't bother. I just think attacking those that would like to see more women in IT makes the problem worse.
January 6, 2010 at 9:16 am
Jen, based on what I have read, I'd enjoy the opportunity to work with you.
January 6, 2010 at 9:17 am
Lynn Pettis (1/6/2010)
Jen, based on what I have read, I'd enjoy the opportunity to work with you.
You'd be welcome here too 🙂
January 6, 2010 at 9:21 am
What a well written, thoughtful, and (to me) eye opening editorial. The first step to fixing a problem is acknowledging it. Your editorial has sparked a wonderful conversation - most of which fully supports the need for such discussion.
My thanks to posters such as Jen, Gail, Elaine, Barriorm and Kg for sharing your experiences. My thanks to posters such as GSquared, dennis.oconnor and david.wendlelken for shining a ray of hope. I loved the end of David's post. Funny.
While individual experiences make up the whole and anecdotes often help humans understand a situation, it is important not to take our own personal tiny worlds as "the way things are". If I did that, I would assume that there are more women than men programmers out there and only subtle sexism exists today. Clearly not the case.
Hearing about France (thanks! for that info previous poster) and the statistics of what has happened historically (in the US and UK? or globally?) is the big picture. Yes, it's a problem that should be fixed. Yes, it needs to be talked about.
January 6, 2010 at 9:23 am
Wow….I have to chime in as well as a “lady programmer”. I was a Business Administration major in college with emphasis in Marketing. I was so bored at my first job out of college that I started dabbling with programming in 1989 – dBase III+. So I had no formal education. I had to teach myself and that was in the days of no Google to help you find answers. By 1995, I took a job as a Junior Programmer and I’ve been a developer ever since. Call me spoiled, but at nearly every company I’ve worked, nearly 50% of the developers were women. I worked at one company that had 4 DBAs and two of them were women – one of whom was the lead. I now work in a department where I am the only female developer (out of 7), however I feel no bias whatsoever. Is it my region - Orange County California? Not sure. I feel very fortunate to have not experienced any issues.
Lisa
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