January 7, 2010 at 3:16 pm
Gift Peddie (1/7/2010)
I believe it is because we simply aren't interested in operating systems and networks
What do other women think - do you want to work with operating systems and networks and hardware or with programming and web applications and databases??
If you are talking about Kernel mode programming which in the Microsoft platform relates to DDK it maybe part learning curve because it is C/C++ and the same with operating systems, C# can be used for network programming but it is still complex area of programming. I also think opportunities are limited because only very large companies like Microsoft, Intel, HP and a few others use system and kernel mode programming. There are more uses for network programming because SMTP, web services and other low level web infrastructure includes sub set of network programming.
Hardware doesn't do it for me - though I can certainly swap out hard drives, install a NIC or RAM or do what I have to do to fix the problem. It may take me a little longer than the hardware geek in the next cubicle over - but I can do it. What I LOVE is all of the various versions of *NIX. Unfortunately, my most recent job is an all Windows environment and I don't get to work in a *NIX environment anymore. I started working with UNIX back in the early 80s - I was taught computers on that - and that is what I know and love. I am a solid SQL programmer - but it isn't what I love. I do it well and do enjoy the times where I am trying to figure out how to do something and finally do. There is a definite sense of accomplishment and pride - but I would love to get my hands back in a *NIX box. 😀
--Sherri
January 7, 2010 at 3:17 pm
cherie j sheriff-437357 (1/7/2010)
I am absolutely more interested in databases. Then Programming after that. Networking itself doesn't hold much appeal to me.
Is that the networking from Facebook or MySpace or the one from IT..:-P
The_SQL_DBA
MCTS
"Quality is never an accident; it is always the result of high intention, sincere effort, intelligent direction and skillful execution; it represents the wise choice of many alternatives."
January 7, 2010 at 3:26 pm
I'm female and hardware scares me, so I guess I fit that stereotype. I'm a developer, but I wonder if I should have been a DBA. I'm way happier in Query Analyzer than VB.Net:-P
I'm also good at training and user docs, so I guess I'm a "soft skill" person - again, fitting the stereotype.
Hmmmmm.
January 7, 2010 at 3:41 pm
cmcc (1/7/2010)
Bravo! Thanks for the link! Great article, rings true.I went to an all-women's college in the 1970s where the math/computer science building was plain - no posters one way or the other. So, it was gender-neutral. Plenty of women in the program - not just because there were no male undergraduates, but because it was kinda cool to give it a try. Then we were hooked...
I guess the sci-fi posters, etc referred to in the article make it a boys' clubhouse, which sends a message in itself. So THAT is the barrier to entry? The office environment is gender-neutral, but you have to have the education to even get there, so it makes sense.
Colleen
I'm a Smithie myself, and after having read most of the comments in this thread, I went back and looked at our CS department site. If the major listing is correct, it looks like the number of CS majors peaked in 2002-2003 and the numbers for current majors matches what it was a year or so after I graduated (late 90s). Not sure if the relatively new Engineering department is sucking up people who would've been CS majors, or it's due to smaller numbers of women being interested in CS in general, as the editorial states.
If I remember correctly, most of the posters in the classrooms and labs were related to the classes being taught in those rooms. There was very little in the classroom that would have driven off anyone who was not already interested in the subject.
I really don't know that I'd consider the SF and gaming swag to be gender-specific though, which is probably what really confuses me about the article.
Jennifer Levy (@iffermonster)
January 7, 2010 at 4:18 pm
Yes, most of the other women in technology that I know personally, and for myself; we all love Sci-Fi and video games and the like also. Sure we have other interests as well, but walking in an office that looks like the Star Wars Smithsonian exhibit would be cool, not a put off for myself. Plus, I will tag you in BF anyday 🙂 Lan party at my house!
January 7, 2010 at 6:58 pm
Steve Jones - Editor (1/7/2010)
We'll never eliminate bias.
Heh... I found a way... I wake up hating everyone and make exceptions from there. Pork chops for everyone! 😛
--Jeff Moden
Change is inevitable... Change for the better is not.
January 7, 2010 at 8:34 pm
Steve Jones - Editor (1/7/2010)
Antares686 (1/7/2010)
Many times pay has nothing to do with fairness, it simply boils down to what you are willing to fight for.You are absolutely correct, and at the same time, this logic has been used to discriminate against women, minorities, ethnicities, etc. There has to be some way to appeal for those that are stuck with un-equivalent pay.
Life is not fair, but we ought to be looking to eliminate abuses of power.
That is another interesting slippery slope. The only thing we can strive for is equality of opportunity, which unfortunately is NOT equality of results.
A lot of the opportunities that come around are due to many things, timing, luck and talent all playing their parts. If there is a deomnstrable pattern then by all means, let's tear it down, but with so many things playing into someone's value to a company, it may quickly get to be VERY difficult to ascertain what's fair and what's not.
A few years back I did some consulting work for a small insurance firm. The PC staff there routinely would get riled up about the "worthless Mainframe guy" who was often seen roaming the building. So after a few months, management listened, and fired the mainframe guy, and two more help desk folks with his salary, and everyone was happy.
Two month later, the mainframe crashed, because the maintenance jobs the worthless one had been running during his walks hadn't run since he left. By the time the company got someone to look at the problem, they had experienced such a loss in confidence from their customer base, the defections alone sent them into negative reserves. It then essentially got put under the supervision of the state, and never recovered. They sold its assets and what little was left of the book of business to another firm this summer, with most of the staff having been laid off long since.
Be careful about putting everyone on the same scale when so much of our work is individualized, custom and often very difficult to quantify.
----------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Your lack of planning does not constitute an emergency on my part...unless you're my manager...or a director and above...or a really loud-spoken end-user..All right - what was my emergency again?
January 8, 2010 at 8:10 am
Matt Miller (#4) (1/7/2010)
Steve Jones - Editor (1/7/2010)
Antares686 (1/7/2010)
Many times pay has nothing to do with fairness, it simply boils down to what you are willing to fight for.You are absolutely correct, and at the same time, this logic has been used to discriminate against women, minorities, ethnicities, etc. There has to be some way to appeal for those that are stuck with un-equivalent pay.
Life is not fair, but we ought to be looking to eliminate abuses of power.
A few years back I did some consulting work for a small insurance firm. The PC staff there routinely would get riled up about the "worthless Mainframe guy" who was often seen roaming the building. So after a few months, management listened, and fired the mainframe guy, and two more help desk folks with his salary, and everyone was happy.
Two month later, the mainframe crashed, because the maintenance jobs the worthless one had been running during his walks hadn't run since he left. By the time the company got someone to look at the problem, they had experienced such a loss in confidence from their customer base, the defections alone sent them into negative reserves. It then essentially got put under the supervision of the state, and never recovered. They sold its assets and what little was left of the book of business to another firm this summer, with most of the staff having been laid off long since.
Be careful about putting everyone on the same scale when so much of our work is individualized, custom and often very difficult to quantify.
Yes and I can atest to this personally, I tend to look very non-productive in my day but put out a little code. What many times isn't seen is that I spend a lot of time researching (and yes screwing around while doing it) and thinking about my approach. I tend to put out very streamlined code which requires little support and mostly then it is loss of an interface which just needs to be started back up or unexpected file size increases. So in my example earlier I was trying to keep simple 1 to 1 comparison of work duties, but unfortunately programming is far more subjective. I am male and work with another male at one time who was making more than me and justified it based on lines of code written. Later on when his project moved to me for support I took many of his ASP pages (VB Script server side) and rewrote them from 5000+ lines to a few hundred in every case. Afterwards we had less support issues, time to resolve dramatically decreased and overall turn around of code enhancements decreased. Overall the application shrunk over 300,000 lines. But wasn't really his fault either, he originally wrote the app against and Access database and had to do some very specific data management to deal with Accesses limitations. He never changed his coding habbits when we moved to SQL Server. But I am well aware of the trouble trying to quantify a person based on day to day habbits.
January 8, 2010 at 9:43 am
From a young age I watched my mother practically run my dads business. She worked full time as a math teacher, but then was his accountant, and built a few foxpro & other programs to help his business out. I don't think I ever questioned whether a woman could be as capable as a man.
Someone already mentioned this one, but I think it was an important point. There are many programmers out there who can not code, there are many people out there for claim to be a web programmer because they know how to tell MS word to save as html. I currently work with a woman who's idea of a database is a complicated excel spreadsheet, but she has a Ph. D. and therefore must know more than me. (the joys of working in academia)
Honestly I think that is the problem with the IT world, the market is saturated with many people who shouldn't be there and ultimately managed by people who can't tell the difference. (a good read about this Codding Horror)
If you think about it as cause & effect, these people with sub-par skill sets, who are struggling to keep their job. If they can't do it the right way, they'll leave or do it the wrong way (lie/cheat/steal) I don't think women are the only victims of this, but I do think that any minority group within a given population makes an easier target. (this could also be the men if the group is 80% women)
I think if we can fight this trend of pretenders it will do more to help any minority, and raise the standards of our profession as a whole.
January 8, 2010 at 10:08 am
Came to this discussion late but thought i would add just a simple though.
I wrote my first code almost 40 years ago, and have worked with many developers since. Many have been women, most were good. many lasted longer then male counterparts. The enjoyable part of working with the women I have had the pleasure of working with is that they were much more humble, human, and kinder then the males I have worked with.
But I have to say this, the few people who I would consider masters have been male. After working with or around hundreds of people if not thousands over the years the number of those I would consider masters is maybe three. They are an odd lot and committed more to the soul of the science then any others. One day I hope to meet a master level female for I know they exist. The only reason I have not met one yet is that I have not met one yet, for they exist.
And again, we are all needed in this field and gender and age does not matter. Talent, drive, and want to do!
Have a great day!
Not all gray hairs are Dinosaurs!
January 8, 2010 at 10:39 am
Just had a chance to catch up with recent activity.
Will give a little more detail – I am a female developer, aged 58, based in UK, who gave up trying to ‘expand her career horizons’ any further about 12 years ago. I have always loved science and technology. I successfully resisted all attempts by teachers to push me into ‘traditional girls’ subjects and have never regretted studying physics, chemistry and mathematics. (Computer science was not even on offer). This prepared me well for work in a very male dominated environment.
What has surprised me is that so many of the female developers posting to the forum are in their 40’s and 50’s. Is this a representation of the demographics? I took my degree on a part-time basis while working in banking. I have 2 sons but as I did my degree after they were born, the career break and catching up with current technology issue was avoided. My sons both went into different branches of IT.
I have seen how individuals struggle to catch up after a career break - it takes real determination and the longer the time away the worse it seems to get. Having current skills is the key, and keeping them up to date when you are actually working is difficult enough. Moving into project management is a route taken by many, including me at one time, yes I did it and well, but I missed the challenge of programming and did find/make an opportunity to move back to the ‘hands on’ side of things.
Another point that jumped out – Lynn’s comment about trying to make sure it’s clear he is male when applying for a job says it all, Jo (was called this even as a child) is ‘sort of unisex’ but without the ‘e’ best guess is that I am female. I have always put my full name on job applications – suspecting/knowing that it would reduce the chance of interview.
However, looking at this from a practical point of view, if the company does not want female developers it is their loss, even if you get the job it’s bound to be an uphill struggle. If you are able to get a job you love with a company/organisation that is open minded about its recruitment then better for your stress levels and your personal sanity.
What I do find odd is that now, when we recruit, we frequently get no female applicants, and as a result the number of female developers in our group is falling drastically, this was not the case even 10 years ago. While I have only sons, some of my colleagues do have daughters, and the peer pressure for girls to study the ‘softer’ subjects and the push to keep boys away from them, to my horror, still seems to exist. Everyone has different skills and we all make different choices in life, the key is that we should not be limiting options for the younger generation which brings me back to my original comment about education, role models and opportunities ( and this should be the responsibility of all)
Jo
January 8, 2010 at 10:52 am
I think what I'm most amazed at, is that of all of the women programmers who have responded to this thread, we've got 4 Jennifers! You guys all have fabulous names! 😀
Jennifer
January 8, 2010 at 10:59 am
jo cl (1/8/2010)
What has surprised me is that so many of the female developers posting to the forum are in their 40’s and 50’s. Is this a representation of the demographics?
I am a little younger than that (late 30's). Most of the female developers & dba's I've met are my age or significantly younger but I know a few that are a little older.
--
Anye Mercy
"Service Unavailable is not an Error" -- John, ENOM support
"You keep using that word. I do not think it means what you think it means." -- Inigo Montoya in "Princess Bride"
"Civilization exists by geologic consent, subject to change without notice." -- Will Durant
January 8, 2010 at 11:22 am
On this line, I read an article fairly recently (I wish I could remember where - will try to find it) that talked about the difference between men and women in the workplace. The article stated that men were self promoters while women did their work and waited to be recognized for the work they had done. The article wasn't talking about IT, but I can see some logic in this. Most of the men I work with will readily point out the things they have done in a manner that they are happy about what they did. I do find often that I do things and I don't self promote as much as the men around me and I think to myself I just do not have the time to go around tooting my own horn.
Please don't take this as me saying anything negative, but it is an example of how promotions and bonuses often get skewed. I have seen it happen like this so many times.
I won't say I thought this article would be true all the time because I am fairly hubristic about the quality of my work, but I see a lot of women who do good work and don't say anything and they are not seen by management as having as much contribution as some men do, but only because of the awareness that men bring to themselves.
it is something to think about.
January 8, 2010 at 11:27 am
jn_gray (1/8/2010)
I think what I'm most amazed at, is that of all of the women programmers who have responded to this thread, we've got 4 Jennifers! You guys all have fabulous names! 😀Jennifer
Oh that is such a girl thing to say!:-D
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