October 5, 2010 at 9:18 am
Steve Jones - SSC Editor (10/5/2010)
TravisDBA (10/5/2010)
Steve Jones - SSC Editor (10/5/2010)
I think lots of people don't want games, but some take advantage of them. Until we recognize that women are equal, and that they deserve fair treatment, regardless of the way they interact with us, this is an issue.ideally, I would agree Steve. However, in the real world, as long as human nature and office politics plays a role in the workplace (and it does) this might be a stretch. 😀
Perhaps. Race used to be more of an issue, and we've learned to make less of an issue with it. We have to learn to talk about this, and learn to recognize and know our prejudices. Then we can work to get past them and start to treat people fairly.
Not all the same, but fairly.
I would venture to say that race is still an issue in the workplace too, it's just not as obvious as it once was, because of the litiginous society we live in today. My point is, we will never ever get rid of these things in the workplace as long as human nature and personal agendas plays a role. "fairly" is a very "fuzzy" term that is very different depending on who you ask and when you ask them.:-D
"Technology is a weird thing. It brings you great gifts with one hand, and it stabs you in the back with the other. ...:-D"
October 5, 2010 at 9:20 am
I'm short. Don't tall people make more on the average? :discuss:
October 5, 2010 at 9:22 am
pjdiller (10/5/2010)
I'm short. Don't tall people make more on the average? :discuss:
From what I've heard on the news, more tall people become managers.
The greatest enemy of knowledge is not ignorance, it is the illusion of knowledge. - Stephen Hawking
October 5, 2010 at 9:25 am
mtillman-921105 (10/5/2010)
pjdiller (10/5/2010)
I'm short. Don't tall people make more on the average? :discuss:From what I've heard on the news, more tall people become managers.
Numerous studies have demonstrated a correlation between height and income... for both men and women.
...
-- FORTRAN manual for Xerox Computers --
October 5, 2010 at 9:29 am
mtillman-921105 (10/5/2010)
pjdiller (10/5/2010)
I'm short. Don't tall people make more on the average? :discuss:From what I've heard on the news, more tall people become managers.
That's because we can see all the way to the back of the room.
"The credit belongs to the man who is actually in the arena, whose face is marred by dust and sweat and blood"
- Theodore Roosevelt
Author of:
SQL Server Execution Plans
SQL Server Query Performance Tuning
October 5, 2010 at 9:42 am
TravisDBA (10/5/2010)
Steve Jones - SSC Editor (10/5/2010)
TravisDBA (10/5/2010)
Steve Jones - SSC Editor (10/5/2010)
I think lots of people don't want games, but some take advantage of them. Until we recognize that women are equal, and that they deserve fair treatment, regardless of the way they interact with us, this is an issue.ideally, I would agree Steve. However, in the real world, as long as human nature and office politics plays a role in the workplace (and it does) this might be a stretch. 😀
Perhaps. Race used to be more of an issue, and we've learned to make less of an issue with it. We have to learn to talk about this, and learn to recognize and know our prejudices. Then we can work to get past them and start to treat people fairly.
Not all the same, but fairly.
I would venture to say that race is still an issue in the workplace too, it's just not as obvious as it once was, because of the litiginous society we live in today. My point is, we will never ever get rid of these things in the workplace as long as human nature and personal agendas plays a role. "fairly" is a very "fuzzy" term that is very different depending on who you ask and when you ask them.:-D
I don't think that fear of litigation is all that's going on here. People were not forced to vote for Obama by any law here in the U.S. 🙂
The greatest enemy of knowledge is not ignorance, it is the illusion of knowledge. - Stephen Hawking
October 5, 2010 at 10:34 am
Steve Jones - SSC Editor (10/5/2010)
I think lots of people don't want games, but some take advantage of them. Until we recognize that women are equal, and that they deserve fair treatment, regardless of the way they interact with us, this is an issue.
Completely agreed.
The question then comes back to - how do you go about proving that they're not (or for that matter than any given group is not being afford those rights)? The statutes allow for equality of opportunity. This means it becomes a lot trickier to show problems, since you can no longer just point to differences in the results to prove the point. What measure do you use?
I am fully behind the need to look at this, but as of yet, there is nothing out there which accurately measures how fair the opportunities are.
----------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Your lack of planning does not constitute an emergency on my part...unless you're my manager...or a director and above...or a really loud-spoken end-user..All right - what was my emergency again?
October 5, 2010 at 2:12 pm
Sometimes you need to check the perspective.
Years ago at another company there was a woman who made quite a bit of noise about being resented because she was a female and an engineer and not respected. She seemed to believe this. In actuality, it was because she would pass blame for problems to whomever was not in the room, basically she would stab anyone in the back if it were in her interest. She didn't seem to notice that none of the women (including our purchasing manager) trusted her either.
After she left another woman joined the company in a similar job and was well respected by everyone.
Discrimination happens, but not all cases are valid.
...
-- FORTRAN manual for Xerox Computers --
October 6, 2010 at 12:11 pm
jay holovacs (10/5/2010)
Sometimes you need to check the perspective.Years ago at another company there was a woman who made quite a bit of noise about being resented because she was a female and an engineer and not respected. She seemed to believe this. In actuality, it was because she would pass blame for problems to whomever was not in the room, basically she would stab anyone in the back if it were in her interest. She didn't seem to notice that none of the women (including our purchasing manager) trusted her either.
After she left another woman joined the company in a similar job and was well respected by everyone.
Discrimination happens, but not all cases are valid.
Ahhh! The old "throwing people under the bus syndrome..." never works anywhere in the long run, regardless of your gender or color. 😀
"Technology is a weird thing. It brings you great gifts with one hand, and it stabs you in the back with the other. ...:-D"
October 11, 2010 at 2:52 am
pjdiller (10/5/2010)
I'm short. Don't tall people make more on the average? :discuss:
Thought 1: Depends on the Industry. eg: Horseracing; I speculate that short people earn more as jockeys than tall people.
Thought 2: There is variance in all statistics. Rather than focus energy on "the average", consider putting all your energy into becoming much better than average. Remember "on average" men are stronger, more athletic & swim faster than women. Yet Leisel Jones & similar female Olympic Gold medal winners can swim faster than nearly all men on the planet.
It rarely takes much effort to be much better than average.
October 15, 2010 at 2:09 am
david_wendelken (10/4/2010)
So, if women who choose to enter the IT field aren't progressing equally (in pay or promotions), I'm interested in why.
I think the main reason for this is higher pay or promotions often comes with more responsibilities which require more time or energy. Men will take it more easily than women since career is their top priority. But women might not want the trade off (less time with family).
October 15, 2010 at 11:26 am
iceheartjade (10/15/2010)
david_wendelken (10/4/2010)
So, if women who choose to enter the IT field aren't progressing equally (in pay or promotions), I'm interested in why.
I think the main reason for this is higher pay or promotions often comes with more responsibilities which require more time or energy. Men will take it more easily than women since career is their top priority. But women might not want the trade off (less time with family).
Exactly, men tend to accept overtime as part of the job, while many women feel that cuts into their family time. I have heard many women say outright at the job interview when told there is off hours involved with this job " I have a husband and children to take care of, I cannot work alot of overtime and off hours." My response was "Well, then maybe you need to open a flower shop then. Overtime and off hours are part of the territory of the IT business, and we are a 24/7 shop here.." Well, you can imagine they were not chosen for the position.:-D
"Technology is a weird thing. It brings you great gifts with one hand, and it stabs you in the back with the other. ...:-D"
October 15, 2010 at 11:38 am
TravisDBA (10/15/2010)
iceheartjade (10/15/2010)
david_wendelken (10/4/2010)
So, if women who choose to enter the IT field aren't progressing equally (in pay or promotions), I'm interested in why.
I think the main reason for this is higher pay or promotions often comes with more responsibilities which require more time or energy. Men will take it more easily than women since career is their top priority. But women might not want the trade off (less time with family).
Exactly, men tend to accept overtime as part of the job, while many women feel that cuts into their family time. I have heard many women say outright at the job interview when told there is off hours involved with this job " I have a husband and children to take care of, I cannot work alot of overtime and off hours." My response was "Well, then maybe you need to open a flower shop then. Overtime and off hours are part of the territory of the IT business, and we are a 24/7 shop here.." Well, you can imagine they were not chosen for the position.:-D
How did we get to the point where we talk about our time - our lives - as though they were just commodities? I like to work, but too much is too much. If I work overtime, it's expecting too much to get paid for it?
A salary used to be a good thing, reserved for managers. Now, all too often in the US, it is no more than an excuse to abuse people by working them long hours.
In my estimation, people in Europe, with their 35 hours work weeks and general attitude about working, have it right - you work to live, not viceversa.
The greatest enemy of knowledge is not ignorance, it is the illusion of knowledge. - Stephen Hawking
October 15, 2010 at 11:49 am
mtillman-921105 (10/15/2010)
TravisDBA (10/15/2010)
iceheartjade (10/15/2010)
david_wendelken (10/4/2010)
So, if women who choose to enter the IT field aren't progressing equally (in pay or promotions), I'm interested in why.
I think the main reason for this is higher pay or promotions often comes with more responsibilities which require more time or energy. Men will take it more easily than women since career is their top priority. But women might not want the trade off (less time with family).
Exactly, men tend to accept overtime as part of the job, while many women feel that cuts into their family time. I have heard many women say outright at the job interview when told there is off hours involved with this job " I have a husband and children to take care of, I cannot work alot of overtime and off hours." My response was "Well, then maybe you need to open a flower shop then. Overtime and off hours are part of the territory of the IT business, and we are a 24/7 shop here.." Well, you can imagine they were not chosen for the position.:-D
How did we get to the point where we talk about our time - our lives - as though they were just commodities? I like to work, but too much is too much. If I work overtime, it's expecting too much to get paid for it?
A salary used to be a good thing, reserved for managers. Now, all too often in the US, it is no more than an excuse to abuse people by working them long hours.
In my estimation, people in Europe, with their 35 hours work weeks and general attitude about working, have it right - you work to live, not viceversa.
With the stiff competition coming from off-shoring of American jobs to places like India where they literally work around the clock for 1/4 the pay of an American worker, we must streamline our operations and expect more from our workers here states-side if we want to continue to compete in the global workplace and economy. That's reality folks!. 😀
"Technology is a weird thing. It brings you great gifts with one hand, and it stabs you in the back with the other. ...:-D"
October 15, 2010 at 11:57 am
With the stiff competition coming from off-shoring of American jobs to places like India where they literally work around the clock for 1/4 the pay of an American worker, we must streamline our operations and expect more from our workers here states-side if we want to continue to compete in the global workplace and economy. That's reality folks!.
Actually, I have to respectfully disagree. That's happening anyway. So you work youself to death for what? To be outsourced anyway. It's a sucker's game.:rolleyes:
The greatest enemy of knowledge is not ignorance, it is the illusion of knowledge. - Stephen Hawking
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