October 4, 2010 at 2:43 pm
wendyp (10/4/2010)
Craig Farrell (10/4/2010)
...Bottom line here is that women aren't bitching and moaning (don't recall who used that phrase...but it's up there in the commentary). There truly is a stereotype out in the workforce and if we all just let it ride and never make anyone accountable, then it's never going to change.
.
The problem is that this is affecting the next generation. Girls make up the majority of undergraduate students - are they 50% of the IT department? No. The job is gender-neutral (it's just logic) but somehow they're not interested. Something is stopping them at the door, when the women in the job right now can tell them that it's no big deal.
So, if we just dismiss the topic, we're saying that we can do without the talents of 50% of the population. Surely there are some worthy women in the class of 2014 that we want to reach?
We can't give up. We need to know what the differences are so this becomes an equal-opportunity field.
October 4, 2010 at 2:48 pm
For the record, the article detailing differences in male/female speech had nothing to say about hostile behavior.
Here are some examples they gave:
Male: We should do X.
Female: Perhaps we should consider doing X.
"Female" speech patterns added lots of "softeners" to the statement and used passive voice.
"Male" speech patterns were more imperative, action-oriented.
Delivery showed confidence vs hesitancy, also.
Let's face it. Example: Real world manager has absolutely zero clue about which technical approach to take. One person asserts they know exactly what to do. The other person hesitantly suggests something might work.
Who does that manager pick?
The one who clearly indicates they don't know what to do, or the person who clearly indicates they do?
Experience shows that the one who is confident in what they say and how they say it gets picked more often. Correctness has little to do with it.
Studies have shown that in person-to-person communication, verbal and auditory cues provide about 95% of the "meaning" that a typical person recieves. The actual logic of the message content is only 5% of the communication payload.
The person who says, acts and sounds like they know what they are doing will communicate that fact to others better than the person who knows what they are doing but communicates in a hesitant, unconfident manner.
ANY person, regardless of gender, can communicate in either mode if they so choose (and perhaps practice a bit).
It's a matter of choice as to which mode they use, once they know there is a choice at all.
October 4, 2010 at 3:09 pm
Getting back to the initial question: "So, are men and women different?"
The answer is obviously yes. That's why men are called men and women are called women.
October 4, 2010 at 4:02 pm
david_wendelken wrote:
Experience shows that the one who is confident in what they say and how they say it gets picked more often. Correctness has little to do with it.
... but William Butler Yeats wrote:
The best lack all conviction, while the worst
Are full of passionate intensity.
Maybe Irish poetry should be required reading at Harvard Business School.
October 4, 2010 at 4:25 pm
david_wendelken (10/4/2010)
For the record, the article detailing differences in male/female speech had nothing to say about hostile behavior.Here are some examples they gave:
Male: We should do X.
Female: Perhaps we should consider doing X.
"Female" speech patterns added lots of "softeners" to the statement and used passive voice.
"Male" speech patterns were more imperative, action-oriented.
Delivery showed confidence vs hesitancy, also.
Let's face it. Example: Real world manager has absolutely zero clue about which technical approach to take. One person asserts they know exactly what to do. The other person hesitantly suggests something might work.
Who does that manager pick?
The one who clearly indicates they don't know what to do, or the person who clearly indicates they do?
Experience shows that the one who is confident in what they say and how they say it gets picked more often. Correctness has little to do with it.
Studies have shown that in person-to-person communication, verbal and auditory cues provide about 95% of the "meaning" that a typical person recieves. The actual logic of the message content is only 5% of the communication payload.
The person who says, acts and sounds like they know what they are doing will communicate that fact to others better than the person who knows what they are doing but communicates in a hesitant, unconfident manner.
ANY person, regardless of gender, can communicate in either mode if they so choose (and perhaps practice a bit).
It's a matter of choice as to which mode they use, once they know there is a choice at all.
My psychology knowledge is dated by about 20 years, but I remember a study about psychologists and women that had a bearing on this. If the women acted forceful, they were more likely to be labeled by psychologists with a disorder of some type, while the same behavior in men was merely thought of as assertive (and OK). So in the workplace, women may have a double-bind going on: too soft and they're, well - soft: too aggressive, and they've got a problem. So women may have a very fine line to walk in that regard.
The greatest enemy of knowledge is not ignorance, it is the illusion of knowledge. - Stephen Hawking
October 4, 2010 at 4:47 pm
mtillman wrote:
... in the workplace, women may have a double-bind going on: too soft and they're, well - soft: too aggressive, and they've got a problem. So women may have a very fine line to walk in that regard.
You've identified a double standard which I think women have been struggling against for a very long time. But if it's any consolation, I think the problem engendered by it is slowly diminishing, as the 'old guard' is replaced by people brought up in a very different society than that of the previous couple of generations.
Martin Luther King really said it best: that a person should be judged by the content of his or her character - period.
I had a professor at university who had an earthier (and somewhat different) way of putting it: you don't have to be in love with the goose to enjoy pâté de foie gras. Whatever you think of the person (and some persons, male and female, do hiss in a rather convincing goose-like fashion), try to judge the person on the merit of what the person produces.
October 4, 2010 at 5:48 pm
mtillman,
I agree with you. I've seen studies from back then, too. It's also possible that today's kids don't have that degree of expectation, but I'm not working with enough young folks to say one way or the other.
That said, life isn't fair.
It isn't fair that guys expect me to give a rat's hindquarters about professional sports teams.
It isn't fair that I'm not "one of the guys" because I don't show the slightest interest in that clap-trap.
Honestly, why anyone cares why one group of strangers carries a piece of dead pig across a field better than a different group of strangers is a complete mystery to me.
I pay a price for that. I accept it.
I pay a price for having unusual hobbies like armoured swordfighting, pottery and silversmithing.
I accept that price, too.
I compensate for it in other ways that have been able to mitigate those disadvantages.
As for the rest, here are some sayings I've always found useful for guiding my actions:
"Life is fired at us point blank. We don't get a rehearsal or a do-over."
"Control what you can control, influence what you can influence, and don't confuse the two."
"Improvise! Adapt! Overcome!"
October 4, 2010 at 10:28 pm
Why do women not always make the same amount as men? The answer is one word, children. Young CHILDLESS women out earn young childless men.
October 5, 2010 at 3:20 am
However does that mean that women need to act like men because more men are in charge? Or that men aren't paying attention to valuable input from others because they are busy being alpha-males and it takes another alpha male to get their attention?
Actually I've witnessed the reverse. In these days of political correctness. Men seem to go out of their way to avoid doing anything that would leave them open to being accused of being sexist. Many women, on the other hand, are absolutely brutal on their female colleagues. I've never figured out if they are motivated by i) "killing off the competition", ii) "preference to be around men" iii) Belief the man is more suited to the task Or iv) some other option I've not thought of. But I find it interesting to watch.
That said there is also a sizable group that like to create a "Womens club" & desire to promote other women & surround themselves with women in their team. So I guess it becomes the luck of the draw as to what sort of person your management is.
October 5, 2010 at 7:13 am
Women want to stop playing these games and just do the job.
Will that day ever come?
October 5, 2010 at 7:29 am
Men want to stop playing these games and just do the job.
Will that day ever come?
"The credit belongs to the man who is actually in the arena, whose face is marred by dust and sweat and blood"
- Theodore Roosevelt
Author of:
SQL Server Execution Plans
SQL Server Query Performance Tuning
October 5, 2010 at 7:31 am
I think lots of people don't want games, but some take advantage of them. Until we recognize that women are equal, and that they deserve fair treatment, regardless of the way they interact with us, this is an issue.
October 5, 2010 at 9:10 am
Steve Jones - SSC Editor (10/5/2010)
I think lots of people don't want games, but some take advantage of them. Until we recognize that women are equal, and that they deserve fair treatment, regardless of the way they interact with us, this is an issue.
ideally, I would agree Steve. However, in the real world, as long as human nature and office politics plays a role in the workplace (and it does) this might be a stretch. 😀
"Technology is a weird thing. It brings you great gifts with one hand, and it stabs you in the back with the other. ...:-D"
October 5, 2010 at 9:11 am
david_wendelken (10/4/2010)
That said, life isn't fair.It isn't fair that guys expect me to give a rat's hindquarters about professional sports teams.
It isn't fair that I'm not "one of the guys" because I don't show the slightest interest in that clap-trap.
Honestly, why anyone cares why one group of strangers carries a piece of dead pig across a field better than a different group of strangers is a complete mystery to me.
I pay a price for that. I accept it.
...
Actually this problem is much bigger than gender.
Two unrelated articles I recently read. One was supposedly tips for being a successfully interviewee and discussed things (based on a survey of HR interviewers) that turned interviewers off to a candidate. Some of the non-job things mentioned by a significant number of interviewers were nervous ticks like fiddling with hair, eye contact issues, even handshake. Significant numbers of interviews actually admitted to using these cues in their selection process.
The second article dealt with aspergers syndrome people in the IT workplace, discussing some of the assets that they could bring to the team. As I read through this article, I thought about how few of them would even make it through an interview with the HR folks from the previous article.
There are big problems in the system, and gender expectations are only one manifestation.
[edit-- of course spelling correctly would probably help too]
...
-- FORTRAN manual for Xerox Computers --
October 5, 2010 at 9:14 am
TravisDBA (10/5/2010)
Steve Jones - SSC Editor (10/5/2010)
I think lots of people don't want games, but some take advantage of them. Until we recognize that women are equal, and that they deserve fair treatment, regardless of the way they interact with us, this is an issue.ideally, I would agree Steve. However, in the real world, as long as human nature and office politics plays a role in the workplace (and it does) this might be a stretch. 😀
Perhaps. Race used to be more of an issue, and we've learned to make less of an issue with it. We have to learn to talk about this, and learn to recognize and know our prejudices. Then we can work to get past them and start to treat people fairly.
Not all the same, but fairly.
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