October 4, 2010 at 11:40 am
david_wendelken (10/4/2010)
So, rather than piss and moan about not getting equal pay for equal work, why not learn what career and job negotiating strategies work best and use them?
Steve Jones
David,are you implying that unequal pay or opportunities is a lack of effort? That men do a better job negotiating and that's why they're paid more?
Steve,
Question 1: re: lack of effort
Nothing in my analogy implied lack of effort in my part to avoid getting hit by my opponent. What I described was the lack of EFFECTIVE effort on my part - and its results.
Do men negotiate better in this regard? If you mean "by skillful use of linguistics and arguments", probably not. If you mean "starting from the assumption that they are worth more and subliminally and successfully communicating that fact", then yes. Absolutely.
Back when I was younger, I played D&D with my friends. I read an interesting article about the differences in male and female communication speech patterns. So, I changed my speech patterns to match the "female" patterns described in the article.
The results were astoundingly dramatic.
I went from the alpha-male, coming up with the plans, getting people to agree to them, leading folks thru the plan, etc., to being totally unheard.
I am writing in a very precise manner. "totally unheard". Not ignored, discounted. "totally unheard." It was as if I had never, ever spoken.
So, to continue the experiment, as my character gained "leadership skill", I started changing my speech patterns back to my normal (for me) male ones.
As I did so, the percentage of the time I got noticed and paid attention to increased.
When I stopped communicating my ideas like women did (as described in the article), I was back to leading the party.
Here are the really important lessons I learned from this:
The only thing I changed was how I communicated my ideas to others.
One method worked and one method didn't.
I chose to use the one that worked.
Life is good.
There are scenarios in life where typically female communication patterns are superior to typically male ones. Clearly, getting better pay and promotional opportunities are not two of them.
October 4, 2010 at 11:48 am
Grant Fritchey (10/4/2010)
I tried negotiating a job offer. I told them what my base would have to be. They didn't meet it. Then they were shocked as hell when I walked away. To this day I don't think they had ever had anyone actually negotiate with them. So, I think you're right.
Have to agree with Grant here. A lot of employers are used to low-mid level techs going for (reaching?) jobs above them, so they'll take what they can get just to work. I regularly scoff at these employers, having taken my lumps.
That said, I read the article... um... Where's the beef? That was useless. I've seen more information and better discussion in this thread then in an article that was, in theory, thought about and researched by someone who leads an entire group that deals with the topic every day.
Yeah, I agree. Yay equality. We all get the equal chance to screw up and get paid less. I've had women run rings around me technically, and they usually held higher positions then I did, and thus better paid. I learned from them. The majority I meet are better at the BA side of things then the hard-core coding though. I try not to stereotype but it's getting to be a pattern that's almost ingrained at this point.
Never stop learning, even if it hurts. Ego bruises are practically mandatory as you learn unless you've never risked enough to make a mistake.
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October 4, 2010 at 11:58 am
David_Wendelken wrote:
...I changed my speech patterns to match the "female" patterns described in the article.
The results were astoundingly dramatic.
I went from the alpha-male, coming up with the plans, getting people to agree to them, leading folks thru the plan, etc., to being totally unheard.
Interesting. However, not necessarily a good thing - this quote from http://www.wisegeek.com/what-is-an-alpha-male.htm:
Though leaders in a company are excellent to have, alpha male characteristics in the workplace may not always be seen as positive. Aggression and disregard for others are not necessarily inspiring. Some people better lead by being “beta” and having good communication skills, sensitivity toward others, and downplaying their strengths so they can showcase the strengths of others.
And the 'beta' personality as described above seems more in tune with the higher, more predominantly female 'Emotional IQ' which enables many women to be successful business leaders.
It may be, then, it was your attempt at emulating a 'beta' personality which failed, rather than the beta personality itself.
October 4, 2010 at 12:08 pm
In principle I agree with the idea that men and women complement each other.
However, by many standards I (female DBA, fifties) am a geek, a techie and can step on peoples' feelings with the best of them (-EQ). Nice try, though.
October 4, 2010 at 12:15 pm
David, you should live in Maryland, where jousting is the state sport (seriously!). Various guys I know are involved in Dagorhir or Civil War enactments, etc. Lots of IT guys, actually. Not many IT women, though. THe history/fantasy is cool but the actual violence is a turn-off.
Back to the topic:
Women aren't complaining about the inequality in pay/work, we just know it's out there. I don't actually want to know what my colleagues make. I don't measure myself against others based on salary. What I get is adequate for me, without rocking the boat. This is my choice and possibly the choice of other women in the field.
October 4, 2010 at 12:27 pm
david_wendelken (10/4/2010)
...I am writing in a very precise manner. "totally unheard". Not ignored, discounted. "totally unheard." It was as if I had never, ever spoken.
So, to continue the experiment, as my character gained "leadership skill", I started changing my speech patterns back to my normal (for me) male ones.
David,
Thanks for the note. That's interesting, and I'm assuming you were working with people in person, not across wires.
However does that mean that women need to act like men because more men are in charge? Or that men aren't paying attention to valuable input from others because they are busy being alpha-males and it takes another alpha male to get their attention?
October 4, 2010 at 12:32 pm
Men tend to be better negotiators than women, fact of life. Salary even today is still largely a negotiated item. 😀
"Technology is a weird thing. It brings you great gifts with one hand, and it stabs you in the back with the other. ...:-D"
October 4, 2010 at 12:41 pm
cmcc (10/4/2010)
Back to the topic:Women aren't complaining about the inequality in pay/work, we just know it's out there. I don't actually want to know what my colleagues make. I don't measure myself against others based on salary. What I get is adequate for me, without rocking the boat. This is my choice and possibly the choice of other women in the field.
I don't think I've seen a better argument to a portion of the in-equality. I always care about average salaries, expectations for recompensation per skillset in use, and tradeoff in paid training and materials, healthcare, and the like.
If I'm not getting what I feel is expected, especially if skillset requirements change when I switch projects, I will walk if the re-negotiation fails. Of course that's after giving a notice and making sure my successors have a significant chance to take over after the brain dump, but I'll still move on.
Never stop learning, even if it hurts. Ego bruises are practically mandatory as you learn unless you've never risked enough to make a mistake.
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October 4, 2010 at 12:56 pm
cmcc wrote:
... by many standards I (female DBA, fifties) am a geek, a techie and can step on peoples' feelings with the best of them (-EQ). Nice try, though.
There are always exceptions to the rule, and exception tend to prove the rule. Congratulations - you are exceptional!
Many, perhaps most, of the women in IT with which I've worked over the last third of a century (I'm about your age and type - a mid-50s 'techie') eventually left the technical realm and moved into management, where their 'beta' characteristics really shined. For the most part, they became outstanding managers and leaders.
Leadership roles usually go to those who can get people like you and me (I, too, can and do step on other people's feelings, most times without even realising it) to work together effectively. Alpha males may be able to shout and bluster better than 'betas', but that doesn't make them automatically equipped to lead an IT staff.
In this day of diverse workforces, it takes sensitivity as well as guts to manage people - even more so when we're talking about we IT types, who sometimes can be - um - a bit socially challenged? 😉
October 4, 2010 at 1:12 pm
Craig-315134 (10/4/2010)
David_Wendelken wrote:...I changed my speech patterns to match the "female" patterns described in the article.
The results were astoundingly dramatic.
I went from the alpha-male, coming up with the plans, getting people to agree to them, leading folks thru the plan, etc., to being totally unheard.
Interesting. However, not necessarily a good thing - this quote from http://www.wisegeek.com/what-is-an-alpha-male.htm:
Though leaders in a company are excellent to have, alpha male characteristics in the workplace may not always be seen as positive. Aggression and disregard for others are not necessarily inspiring. Some people better lead by being “beta” and having good communication skills, sensitivity toward others, and downplaying their strengths so they can showcase the strengths of others.
And the 'beta' personality as described above seems more in tune with the higher, more predominantly female 'Emotional IQ' which enables many women to be successful business leaders.
It may be, then, it was your attempt at emulating a 'beta' personality which failed, rather than the beta personality itself.
Craig,
You raise a very reasonable point. With the information I imparted, it's an equally plausible scenario.
I mentioned that in different life scenarios, the "female" speech patterns outlined in the article were better solutions.
I still use those speech patterns in scenarios where I think they are more appropriate than "male" patterns. And they work very well for me. If I guess wrong, switching modes often gets me better results.
So, based upon other my life experiences with it, I would have to say I succeeded in emulating those speech patterns. It's probably one contributor to why I have so many intelligent lady friends, which, I might add, is why Life is Good truly applies. :w00t: (The other is that I truly appreciate intelligent, competent women.) It's one of the reason's I'm saddened that fewer women seem to be in technology-centric fields today, fewer interesting people to hang out with.
October 4, 2010 at 1:27 pm
david_wendelen wrote:
I still use ["female"] speech patterns in scenarios where I think they are more appropriate than "male" patterns. And they work very well for me. If I guess wrong, switching modes often gets me better results.
Now that's quite an insight, and something I had never thought of before.
But on reflection, it seems quite true: Good leaders sometimes have to be good actors, too (and I mean this in a most respectful way), and it appears you have come to appreciate this point - and to act upon it (pun intended).
And with that, I shall return to the role I am used to playing - bit-twiddler. Thank you again for your insight.
October 4, 2010 at 1:40 pm
Craig Farrell (10/4/2010)
That said, I read the article... um... Where's the beef? That was useless. I've seen more information and better discussion in this thread then in an article that was, in theory, thought about and researched by someone who leads an entire group that deals with the topic every day.
Yeah, I agree. Yay equality. We all get the equal chance to screw up and get paid less. I've had women run rings around me technically, and they usually held higher positions then I did, and thus better paid. I learned from them. The majority I meet are better at the BA side of things then the hard-core coding though. I try not to stereotype but it's getting to be a pattern that's almost ingrained at this point.
Craig, I completely agree that there has been a great outpouring of comments about the subject. Sorry it sounds like you wasted your time reading my commentary. I don't profess to be an authority on the subject, just someone who is involved and wants to promote awareness. I'm just a regular day by day DBA like everyone else. The goal was to get people talking and in that it's a success.
Bottom line here is that women aren't bitching and moaning (don't recall who used that phrase...but it's up there in the commentary). There truly is a stereotype out in the workforce and if we all just let it ride and never make anyone accountable, then it's never going to change.
Thank you SSC for taking the time to open this up for discussion. If there were a Magic Formula or The Answer, there wouldn't be a need to ask these quesitons in the first place. Let's continue to spread awareness and work toward breaking those stereotypes.
October 4, 2010 at 1:58 pm
wendyp (10/4/2010)
Craig, I completely agree that there has been a great outpouring of comments about the subject. Sorry it sounds like you wasted your time reading my commentary. I don't profess to be an authority on the subject, just someone who is involved and wants to promote awareness. I'm just a regular day by day DBA like everyone else. The goal was to get people talking and in that it's a success.
My apologies, then. This line from the article:
I am currently co-chair of the Women In Technology Virtual Chapter for the SQLPASS organization and also a member of IGNITE and the Chicago Chapter of Girls In Technology (GIT). I also hold a degree in Psychology and have spent time in many roles from Counselor to Administrative Assistant to Instructor to Database Administrator, and most recently, Consultant.
It implies more than just being a day to day DBA. As you mentioned, it has brought up a good discussion. If that was the goal, complete success. I had hoped for more detailed insight.
Bottom line here is that women aren't bitching and moaning (don't recall who used that phrase...but it's up there in the commentary). There truly is a stereotype out in the workforce and if we all just let it ride and never make anyone accountable, then it's never going to change.
I would counter, however, there are women who do that. At the same time, these women, by their own gender(!) are called 'butch', 'alphagirl', ... etc. Any number of derogative, and sometimes sexual preference based, nicknames. It's not even the guys. It's a cost, and it shouldn't be.
Never stop learning, even if it hurts. Ego bruises are practically mandatory as you learn unless you've never risked enough to make a mistake.
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October 4, 2010 at 2:11 pm
Craig Farrell (10/4/2010)
I would counter, however, there are women who do that. At the same time, these women, by their own gender(!) are called 'butch', 'alphagirl', ... etc. Any number of derogative, and sometimes sexual preference based, nicknames. It's not even the guys. It's a cost, and it shouldn't be.
I would disagree. Good negotiation is not about hostility. It's about getting as much of what you want while at the same time providing your counterpart what is most important to them. Only in dysfunctional organizations does it involve hostility.
...
-- FORTRAN manual for Xerox Computers --
October 4, 2010 at 2:26 pm
jay holovacs (10/4/2010)
Craig Farrell (10/4/2010)
I would counter, however, there are women who do that. At the same time, these women, by their own gender(!) are called 'butch', 'alphagirl', ... etc. Any number of derogative, and sometimes sexual preference based, nicknames. It's not even the guys. It's a cost, and it shouldn't be.I would disagree. Good negotiation is not about hostility. It's about getting as much of what you want while at the same time providing your counterpart what is most important to them. Only in dysfunctional organizations does it involve hostility.
We have different experiences, or perhaps perceptions, of the women who usually get these derogatives. I find these women to be competent, team-effective, strong women who just don't bend over for someone simply because they asked. Hostility isn't usually started with, or even considered a last resort, but they certainly aren't willing to take "Oh, you're worth this" for granted without consideration and negotiation... and being willing to walk away.
Never stop learning, even if it hurts. Ego bruises are practically mandatory as you learn unless you've never risked enough to make a mistake.
For better assistance in answering your questions[/url] | Forum Netiquette
For index/tuning help, follow these directions.[/url] |Tally Tables[/url]
Twitter: @AnyWayDBA
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