October 4, 2010 at 8:09 am
cmcc (10/4/2010)
Anyway, I see men taking more risks and demanding more pay, whereas women will take the job that is convenient, at the pay that is offered.True or not true?
On the whole, males are more risk taking than females (just look at young men's insurance costs).
This is true outside our species, as well as within. In most species, including our ancestors, it was the aggressive males that acquired the most resources that contributed the most genetically to the next generation (interestingly a good percentage aggressive males also tended to die without reproducing, but of the males who reproduced, they made up the biggest share). Aggression does not pay off the same way for mammalian females. With substantial time and resource constraints, a conservative strategy was far more effective. Get going early and be sure you remain alive to care for the young, almost the opposite of the optimal strategy for the males.
...
-- FORTRAN manual for Xerox Computers --
October 4, 2010 at 9:12 am
Generalisations are dangerous at best, so (deep breath) here come some:
I think men and women tend to show different kinds of intelligence at work.
Men seem to have a higher TIQ (technical IQ) - they are often more adept figuring out the bits and bytes of technical problems. (Apologies to Ada Lovelace and Grace Hopper, two clear exceptions.)
Women seem to have a higher EIQ (emotional IQ) - they are more intuitive about reading personalities and understanding the relationships and politics of the workplace.
Both kinds of intelligence are needed for an IT department to succeed, and neither seems more or less dispensable than the other. In work, as in life, men and women need each other to be complete.
October 4, 2010 at 9:21 am
Without trying to explain why this is, back to the stone age, let me say that I think the Technical IQ vs. Emotional IQ has some validity, but I think it has more to do with interest than ability. I have taken advantage of quite a few scripts from sqlfool.com. "That female" has a better grasp of "the details" in SQL server than I do, without any doubt. She's been more interested in it that I have been... for a longer length of time. There are other good examples. I think your hesitation to generalize is a good impulse. At least in this case, I don't think generalization has any usable value. When I'm presented with work that is well formed, organized, and thorough in this field, I don't have a clue as to the sex of the author without checking the name.
With respect.
October 4, 2010 at 9:26 am
To me, this is a very easy issue to deal with.
The legal barriers to women progressing equally in the workplace have been removed.
If women aren't choosing to enter the IT field, that's their choice. If they don't like their choice, they can change it. Not my problem.
So, if women who choose to enter the IT field aren't progressing equally (in pay or promotions), I'm interested in why.
Now, any group of people, be their group based on cultural, socio-economic, regional, or biological reasons, may well have a "group pattern" for handling a given situation.
It doesn't matter what group you pick that has such a pattern, some members of the group use a different pattern successfully. That means that members of the group have the capability to choose a different pattern and use it successfully.
So, the question isn't about ability, it's again about choice.
I have a sports hobby. I wear knightly armour and perform medieval martial arts with swords, maces, axes, spears, etc.
I have a fighting style, my "group pattern" if you will.
When my opponent rings my helmet with a sword blow delivered full-force at 25+ mph, I could complain that's unfair, because my style is just as valid as his (or her) style. But the reality is, if I'm on the receiving end of a buffet from that person on a regular basis, my style - or my execution of it, simply isn't up to par.
I don't complain about it. I just learn what they are doing better than I am at this task and I copy it. Then I do better. My style evolves and improves because I change it to what works better.
Sometimes someone has a natural advantage that I can't copy. They might be 6' 6" tall with wrists like my thighs. I could whine about it and continue to get clocked. Or, I could use my noggin and figure out something I can do that they can't, something that their massive size gets in the way of, and use their size and strength against them. Will I have to work a bit harder? Yep. But once I figure out an improvement to my style that neutralizes their inborn advantage, so will they.
So, rather than piss and moan about not getting equal pay for equal work, why not learn what career and job negotiating strategies work best and use them?
October 4, 2010 at 9:30 am
David Lean (10/4/2010)
Sure a female doll & doll house may be hard for him to relate to. But buy him a few "Star Wars" dolls (action figures) & a doll house (Battle Star base).
I bet he'll play with it for hours.
Too right about enjoying star wars toys (never thought of them as dolls). Clone Wars are so cool!! Even his dad enjoys playing with them. Sorry traditionalists but Rex is the best!! However that said it is all about combat rather than changing nappies, outfits and taking them for walks!!!
October 4, 2010 at 9:37 am
tim.kay (10/4/2010)
David Lean (10/4/2010)
Sure a female doll & doll house may be hard for him to relate to. But buy him a few "Star Wars" dolls (action figures) & a doll house (Battle Star base).
I bet he'll play with it for hours.
Too right about enjoying star wars toys (never thought of them as dolls). Clone Wars are so cool!! Even his dad enjoys playing with them. Sorry traditionalists but Rex is the best!! However that said it is all about combat rather than changing nappies, outfits and taking them for walks!!!
True, but look at HOW they play with them. Girls (I see it in my young granddaughter, putting blankets over her dolls to keep them comfy) will often nurture and talk to the dolls, boys almost always use the dolls as extensions of themselves.. including fighting with other dolls.
Not that I try to 'feminize' my granddaughter, she loves bouncing through back country in my Jeep, and helping me fix the stuff I break doing that, but but she'll bring her dolls with and take good care of them on the ride.
...
-- FORTRAN manual for Xerox Computers --
October 4, 2010 at 9:41 am
pjdiller wrote:
I think the Technical IQ vs. Emotional IQ has some validity, but I think it has more to do with interest than ability.
Very possibly so, my friend, but that in turn raises another question, I think: why do these 'interests' tend to conform to lines of gender? Is it something fixed in the genes, or engrained by society?
It is a 'nature vs nurture' question, which I'm afraid I have neither the intelligence nor the wisdom to answer.
October 4, 2010 at 9:53 am
Craig-315134 (10/4/2010)
pjdiller wrote:I think the Technical IQ vs. Emotional IQ has some validity, but I think it has more to do with interest than ability.
Very possibly so, my friend, but that in turn raises another question, I think: why do these 'interests' tend to conform to lines of gender? Is it something fixed in the genes, or engrained by society?
It is a 'nature vs nurture' question, which I'm afraid I have neither the intelligence nor the wisdom to answer.
That's a great question, one that won't be answered today for sure, certainly not by me :).
However, for my own purposes within the workforce, I don't think getting an answer to the question changes the value I can get from a script created by a person who happens in this case to be female. I guess my point is that the reasons behind the differences, whatever they may be, can quickly become irrelevent when I'm "face-to-face" with a single person.
At the same time, I wouldn't want to minimize the long term value of understanding the bigger question.
October 4, 2010 at 10:00 am
pjdiller wrote:
I guess my point is that the reasons behind the differences, whatever they may be, can quickly become irrelevent when I'm "face-to-face" with a single person.
Agreed, absolutely! 🙂
October 4, 2010 at 10:02 am
So what if girls like pink and dolls. The problem is what women like is not valued. I heard a man in my office refer to "Julie and Julia" as a chick flick because it was about a woman and starred women. The movie is about a person that overcame obstacles to become an expert in her field and admired by many. I know many men who thought it was a great movie but there are others who wouldn't see it because they perceived a chick flick.
There is nothing wrong with pink.
October 4, 2010 at 11:07 am
david_wendelken (10/4/2010)
...So, rather than piss and moan about not getting equal pay for equal work, why not learn what career and job negotiating strategies work best and use them?
David,
are you implying that unequal pay or opportunities is a lack of effort? That men do a better job negotiating and that's why they're paid more?
October 4, 2010 at 11:17 am
Steve Jones - Editor (10/4/2010)
david_wendelken (10/4/2010)
...So, rather than piss and moan about not getting equal pay for equal work, why not learn what career and job negotiating strategies work best and use them?
David,
are you implying that unequal pay or opportunities is a lack of effort? That men do a better job negotiating and that's why they're paid more?
There actually were several studies done in the nineties about just that, which tend to confirm that factor. Men have more of a tendency to "counter" than women according to that study. Now - it's also not the only reason why there might be a discrepancy, but it is one of them.
Here's actually a newer version of that very study:
http://www.womendontask.com/stats.html
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Your lack of planning does not constitute an emergency on my part...unless you're my manager...or a director and above...or a really loud-spoken end-user..All right - what was my emergency again?
October 4, 2010 at 11:23 am
Overall that might be true, though I wonder. Most of the "geeks" and IT folks I now don't really negotiate at all.
October 4, 2010 at 11:27 am
Steve Jones - Editor (10/4/2010)
Overall that might be true, though I wonder. Most of the "geeks" and IT folks I now don't really negotiate at all.
Negotiating for initial salary is only the beginning. On the job we negotiate constantly with vendors, customers, bosses, other employees, departments, etc. The stronger negotiators utimately outperform the weaker ones.
...
-- FORTRAN manual for Xerox Computers --
October 4, 2010 at 11:29 am
Matt Miller (#4) (10/4/2010)
Steve Jones - Editor (10/4/2010)
david_wendelken (10/4/2010)
...So, rather than piss and moan about not getting equal pay for equal work, why not learn what career and job negotiating strategies work best and use them?
David,
are you implying that unequal pay or opportunities is a lack of effort? That men do a better job negotiating and that's why they're paid more?
There actually were several studies done in the nineties about just that, which tend to confirm that factor. Men have more of a tendency to "counter" than women according to that study. Now - it's also not the only reason why there might be a discrepancy, but it is one of them.
Here's actually a newer version of that very study:
I tried negotiating a job offer. I told them what my base would have to be. They didn't meet it. Then they were shocked as hell when I walked away. To this day I don't think they had ever had anyone actually negotiate with them. So, I think you're right.
"The credit belongs to the man who is actually in the arena, whose face is marred by dust and sweat and blood"
- Theodore Roosevelt
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