October 18, 2014 at 11:09 am
Comments posted to this topic are about the item Why Would You Move?
October 19, 2014 at 10:56 pm
Another consideration is, the correct tool for the job.. Having recently been involved with a mapping application was astounded in the the maturity of the Postgres implementation of Geography/Geometry functions. Yet SQL Server as a production system still, in my opinion, provides a data and development environment to answer most business needs. Without getting into a 'whos flavour is better' debate, they all have their strengths (and weaknesses). Beta or VHS .... like many points in database development... it depends.
CodeOn
:w00t:
October 19, 2014 at 11:11 pm
I think it's also very easy for weaker developers or those that don't consider the business impact of a choice to also promote a variety of frameworks within a language set.
E.g. For this project we'll use C# and ServiceStack rather than C# with WebApi. Not that there's anything wrong with that if it is the core framework, however you don't want a different particular skillset for each project just so someone can experiment or pad out their experience. The only thing that creates is a maintenance nightmare.
October 20, 2014 at 12:45 am
Why move?
Because the company wants to move away from the expensive and hence difficult MS Stack and use LAMP because it is free and "any computer language is easy to use, so with a non-MS language we will be able to get our next project finished on time"!!!
And no, I didn't even bother trying defend MS.
October 20, 2014 at 1:03 am
I'd argue against that. I don't think that expensive and difficult are really on the same wavelength / scale for comparison.
What's so expensive about MS development? SQL Server Express still allows 10GB and is free. There are express versions of Visual Studio if cost cutting is the end-aim.
For a web-presence just get the licensing with the hosting.
In terms of development languages C# hands down beats java / objective c (developer trust-wise it is a different story). Even basic language features like LINQ, or even auto-properties.
October 20, 2014 at 1:35 am
courtney.smith (10/20/2014)
I'd argue against that. I don't think that expensive and difficult are really on the same wavelength / scale for comparison.What's so expensive about MS development? SQL Server Express still allows 10GB and is free. There are express versions of Visual Studio if cost cutting is the end-aim.
For a web-presence just get the licensing with the hosting.
In terms of development languages C# hands down beats java / objective c (developer trust-wise it is a different story). Even basic language features like LINQ, or even auto-properties.
I do agree with you. Its just that they dont want to listen, no matter how it is phrased, tried on so many other aspects. To them because they pay the wages they can define what shape the world is not matter what the evidence is. Sad to say, many business decisions are not based on logic but instead are based on whim, hearsay and prejudice.
October 20, 2014 at 2:04 am
Yet Another DBA (10/20/2014)
courtney.smith (10/20/2014)
I'd argue against that. I don't think that expensive and difficult are really on the same wavelength / scale for comparison.What's so expensive about MS development? SQL Server Express still allows 10GB and is free. There are express versions of Visual Studio if cost cutting is the end-aim.
For a web-presence just get the licensing with the hosting.
In terms of development languages C# hands down beats java / objective c (developer trust-wise it is a different story). Even basic language features like LINQ, or even auto-properties.
I do agree with you. Its just that they dont want to listen, no matter how it is phrased, tried on so many other aspects. To them because they pay the wages they can define what shape the world is not matter what the evidence is. Sad to say, many business decisions are not based on logic but instead are based on whim, hearsay and prejudice.
Yes - there's a lot of that. I've seen people hate a system built on iOS or Android for no other reason than the tech it was built on. Not analysing it at all from the business perspective of "will it make the business money" or "will it add value to the business" but rather "I hate XXX".
From a development company perspective what is even funnier is that the largest cost will always be the employee writing the software. Saving a few hundred dollars or a few thousand even doesn't cover wages for too long if the dev is not productive or will take weeks/months to really get a true craftsmanship in that language/technology.
October 20, 2014 at 4:58 am
That is the problem with fanbois (and fangrrrls) and, their flip side, the haters.
It is astounding that people whose work is based upon logic can become so unjustifiably biased for or against something. It becomes a form of fundamentalism. In all aspects of life I view fundamentalism as blind and unscientific.
I am not saying that people should be without faith (in whatever) just that they should be accepting of alternatives. You don't have to change yourself but accept that there are others that find themselves in different circumstances.
Gaz
-- Stop your grinnin' and drop your linen...they're everywhere!!!
October 20, 2014 at 6:33 am
What's so expensive about MS development? SQL Server Express still allows 10GB and is free. There are express versions of Visual Studio if cost cutting is the end-aim.
How many companies/developers only use the low-end "free-ish" tools from Microsoft? Have you looked at the limitations? Have you looked at the hidden gotchas in a program like BizSpark? Taxes, license costs, API churn and version churn can bury smaller companies or dent a budget in a division of a larger one.
When working with local smaller companies that are not solely mobile software sales or consultants, almost all the newer ones have a large percentage of OSS in their development and hosting mix. It could be R or Python for statistical analysis. Linux for hosting. MySQL or Postgres for RDBMS. Git for source control. Kettle for ETL. Multiple different places to host.
And larger corporations are adopting, investigating and actively supporting many of these tools. Plus you can get support agreements from companies like Redhat or Continuum Analytics if you need assistance or additional software.
As a developer/admin/database guy that works and lives in both the Microsoft and OSS worlds, there's a lot to admire about both. But increasingly there's only one that I can afford to support.
October 20, 2014 at 6:53 am
chrisn-585491 (10/20/2014)
What's so expensive about MS development? SQL Server Express still allows 10GB and is free. There are express versions of Visual Studio if cost cutting is the end-aim.
How many companies/developers only use the low-end "free-ish" tools from Microsoft? Have you looked at the limitations? Have you looked at the hidden gotchas in a program like BizSpark? Taxes, license costs, API churn and version churn can bury smaller companies or dent a budget in a division of a larger one.
Well Developers do have access to SQL Server Developer version for next to nothing unless things have changed lately in that regard.
At the office we have an action pack subscription and that's only a few hundred dollars with 5 Visual Studio licenses.
October 20, 2014 at 7:06 am
When my son got married a few years back I went out to dinner with the guys in the wedding party. Table conversation (d?)evolved into SQL server vs Oracle. Ah tradition.
...
-- FORTRAN manual for Xerox Computers --
October 20, 2014 at 7:10 am
Well Developers do have access to SQL Server Developer version for next to nothing unless things have changed lately in that regard.
At the office we have an action pack subscription and that's only a few hundred dollars with 5 Visual Studio licenses.
Take a look at the whole infrastructure including all software costs, licenses, etc... If you primarily develop for only clients that require the Microsoft stack, then you have to pay the piper and they do too. It may be worth it in many cases, it's probably a good thing. You do become dependent on the folks in Redmond.
If you aren't 100% committed to Microsoft products or license costs are larger than you can stand, then there is some discovery and some exploration that either reduce costs or open new lines of business for you.
Either way, it's a good time to be a developer/admin or DBA.
October 20, 2014 at 7:17 am
When my son got married a few years back I went out to dinner with the guys in the wedding party. Table conversation (d?)evolved into SQL server vs Oracle. Ah tradition.
We usually have the Commercial vs OSS debates, but they never go far since most folks work with both and like aspects of both. Tis a strange time...
October 20, 2014 at 7:18 am
In my case, we are switching from Oracle to Sql Server because the company wants to standardize. I read often about how difficult it is to do anything in Oracle, I could say similar things about Sql Server. In reality I believe that most of this is due to the change from one system to the other, and not because one is inherently more or less difficult. As I work more and more with SQL Server it is becoming easier, but my productivity took a big hit when we first started working with Sql Server.
As we continue the transition, one of my biggest problems is having to maintain data in both systems because not all of the programs that use the data have been migrated yet. Of course our end users don't care where or how we store the data as long as they continue to get the information that they need.
John
October 20, 2014 at 7:28 am
There seems to be this prevailing thought, both in governement and within corporations, that big problems can be solved by throwing big piles of money at it. This manner of thinking has left us with a legacy of half finished projects, discontent, and debt.
From what I've observed, the true root of most systemic problems are people. If your organization has project overruns, outages, and poorly performing SQL under SQL Server, then chances are you'll still experience the same under Oracle. I think it was Einstein who coined the phrase "You cannot solve a problem with the same mind that created it." Therefore, changes in IT infrastructure and architecture should be a collaborative effort, carefully thought out, and driven by changes in the mindset of ALL those who are involved. Otherwise, you're just driving the bus down yet another dead end road on an empty tank.
"Do not seek to follow in the footsteps of the wise. Instead, seek what they sought." - Matsuo Basho
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