July 11, 2012 at 9:26 am
Hence, crazy as it sounds, I look forward to being proven wrong.
Not sure I would agree with the wording...
When that happens, I accept it and embrace it, and I am better off for it. If you show me I am wrong, I will thank you for it.
I have felt this way for a long time. Most people get upset when you discuss things like this. However we all are wrong quite frequently.
One analogy I use is about opinions. People frequently acuse others of being opinionated. Well of course people are opinionated! We ALL ARE!!! We also always believe our opinions are correct.
Once we know that our opinions are incorrect, we change them!
The thing is that humans seem reluctant to accept factual evidence easily. It is probably due to things like how our media outright lies about things to sway public opinion - which causes people to fall into two groups. The first is the majority of people who believe everything they hear from their favorite source, regardless of how ridiculous it is (see recent jobs reports that the liberal media claims is evidence our economy is sound as just one example). The second is those people who hear things, but actually try to determine for themselves whether there is truth behind it. I submit most of the people in this group fall into the second group.
Dave
Dave
July 11, 2012 at 9:58 am
And here I thought I was the only one who didn't mind being wrong about something!
Guess I was wrong about that. 😉
Steph Brown
July 11, 2012 at 1:05 pm
I'm never wrong. I thought I was wrong once, but I was mistaken.
I've heard this put many ways, but this editorial was one of the best. My degree is in computer SCIENCE. If we are truly scientists, then we should act like that. We should not act like the engineers at Morton-Thiokol and "take off off our engineer hats and put on our marketing hats" and make a decision that results in a Space Shuttle blowing up. We should act like the older scientist who, when his Noble prize winning idea is proven to be wrong, he applauds it. "Wrong" is really the wrong word. It should be "out of date" or "new evidence has shown" or "here is an alternative worth considering". I'm not trying to sugar coat, I'm saying we are wrong when we don't have the right data or just missed something, like I said, "mistaken".
July 11, 2012 at 2:17 pm
Another reason to accept being proven wrong is that it shows someone else is aware enough to see/understand your mistake. As long as they've "got your back" you can proceed more confidently than if you must treat every move as life threatening ( Hakim's "... you died" )
Continuing the evolution metaphor, if you can't treat your current coworkers as reliable members of your tribe you should probably consider some new coworkers.
July 11, 2012 at 2:18 pm
This is like writing...you should never edit your own writing. We all 'know' what we intended to do or write so we can't see our mistakes. Whenever I write a large script, I always have someone review it for me. I'd rather I was found to be wrong before something bad happens than finding out later (missing WHERE clause on a Delete or Update anyone????).
-SQLBill
July 11, 2012 at 4:51 pm
Michael Lysons (7/11/2012)
Sadly, I think part of the problem is another human trait; the ridicule of those who are wrong.It's even evident on this site. Just look at a whole host of QotD posts, and you'll see stuff like "Good, back to basics question" and "I can't believe x% got this wrong" - all subtle little digs at those who may be wrong.
...
I hadn't thought of those comments as digs on those who are wrong. Usually more to the point of the questioner and as a compliment to him/her for reminding all of things of that nature. Though it is good to see these points of view. I will certainly try harder to make the comments seem less of a dig.
Jason...AKA CirqueDeSQLeil
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July 12, 2012 at 2:49 am
SQLRNNR (7/11/2012)
Michael Lysons (7/11/2012)
Sadly, I think part of the problem is another human trait; the ridicule of those who are wrong.It's even evident on this site. Just look at a whole host of QotD posts, and you'll see stuff like "Good, back to basics question" and "I can't believe x% got this wrong" - all subtle little digs at those who may be wrong.
...
I hadn't thought of those comments as digs on those who are wrong. Usually more to the point of the questioner and as a compliment to him/her for reminding all of things of that nature. Though it is good to see these points of view. I will certainly try harder to make the comments seem less of a dig.
I see "good back to basics question" as a compliment. With the x% comment, I agree: it could be simple lack of thought, but it could be an attempt to display superiority or "win points" at the expense of others.
There are various psychological theories associated the attempts of the insecure to feel secure by attacking others. Taken further than in this (x%) example, "bullying" may be one that applies.
July 12, 2012 at 6:27 am
Continuing the evolution metaphor, if you can't treat your current coworkers as reliable members of your tribe you should probably consider some new coworkers.
I usually don't respond to comments like this, because they are true, there is no argument, really. However, it is also true that there are a lot of dysfunctional workplaces out there. I read statistic a long ago, so apologies for inaccuracy, but there are something like 20% or more of employees who are actively working to sabotage their company. That would include hassling other employees and trying to make someone else look bad for some personal reason. If you accept the bell curve theory, there have to be some incompetent people working just about everywhere. Very few management teams acknowledge these things and often it is management that is enabling or instigated the dysfunction.
I live in a small market. There are some good jobs here, but people hang on to them. I can't just move every 4 years like I did when I lived in a metro area. I love my house on the river (until the river decided to come to my house last month, but that's another story) so I'm not moving just to get a slightly better job. I think it is more important to discuss how to deal with problem people rather presenting the "you should move" solution for everything.
July 12, 2012 at 6:36 am
WolforthJ (7/12/2012)
I think it is more important to discuss how to deal with problem...
I couldn't agree more. Trouble is, if you can't fix it, you're faced with moving (plenty more rivers around!) or in the worst case suffering psychological damage.
July 12, 2012 at 7:22 am
Antares686 (7/11/2012)
The same goes with arguements with the wife, she get's very mad with me becuase I won't just accept she is right if I feel she is incorrect or proof needs to be given. Those moments are the worst, she goes on how I am arguementative and always have to be right and I have to rein her in by reminding her arguements require more thsan one person, and two no one should ever just conceed on face value unless they know the other person is right.
Exactly! I hear this all the time as well. My previous point about all of us having an opinion and thinking we are right ties in with this. Show me proof and I will gladly change my opinion. I fondly remember a situation where I refactored some code and reduced it by about 2/3rds. People screamed "this isn't right" because my code was much cleaner, shorter and in the end corrected mistakes they had made. I had to prove to them my code was correct, but I had to first spend a huge amount of time convincing them it was worth looking at.
Another event I remember is a coworker who rarely made any kind of error telling me I was wrong. She was kind of shy, and didn't like doing this with anyone. My response was "well I am sure I have it right, but since you think otherwise, I must be wrong". She was shocked that I took her opinion so highly. Oh, she was right!
If more people would handle mistakes without the criticism, we would all be better off.
If supervisors and managers would handle the staff that consistently makes the same mistakes, maybe people wouldn't feel the need to be critical of repeated errors.
Dave
Dave
July 12, 2012 at 7:35 am
SQLBill (7/11/2012)
This is like writing...you should never edit your own writing. We all 'know' what we intended to do or write so we can't see our mistakes. Whenever I write a large script, I always have someone review it for me. I'd rather I was found to be wrong before something bad happens than finding out later (missing WHERE clause on a Delete or Update anyone????).-SQLBill
Off topic, but important enough to comment on:
I have been taught to always write a select before a delete. Confirm the records, then use that code to write the update/delete. The issue there isn't being wrong, it is being uneducated or stupid. Uneducated the first time you make the mistake, or if nobody gave you advice on how to do it more safely. Stupid when you continue to do the same thing despite being offered good advice on how to prevent it. I believe I posted here once about a guy that wrote all his C++ if statements like;
If (a = 5)
instead of
If (a == 5)
He couldn't figure out why the code always failed. We explained to him about the double equals yet he made this same mistake hundreds of times! I gave him an easy solution:
If (5 == a)
He refused to follow it as he viewed it as hard to understand! (Insert profane descriptive word or phrase here) I explained how the compiler would catch the mistake he made if he placed the constant first, but he simply wouldn't listen. I bet he is still making this same mistake because he is too obstinate (stupid) to follow good coding advice.
There are a huge number of people who have made the same mistakes we make - failure to learn from their errors is just dumb.
Dave
Dave
July 12, 2012 at 8:08 am
djackson 22568 (7/12/2012)
I have been taught to always write a select before a delete. Confirm the records, then use that code to write the update/delete.
I'm not saying you're wrong (obviously!) but I prefer:
begin transaction;
delete tablename output deleted.* [into anothertable] where <condition>;
[select * from anothertable;]
rollback;
Then the only thing you have to change is the "commit" and (with the 'into' clause) you get a 'hard' copy of the stuff you just deleted by mistake.
A paranoid dba is a good dba 🙂
July 12, 2012 at 10:37 am
david.wright-948385 (7/12/2012)
djackson 22568 (7/12/2012)
I have been taught to always write a select before a delete. Confirm the records, then use that code to write the update/delete.I'm not saying you're wrong (obviously!) but I prefer:
begin transaction;delete tablename output deleted.* [into anothertable] where <condition>;
[select * from anothertable;]
rollback;
Then the only thing you have to change is the "commit" and (with the 'into' clause) you get a 'hard' copy of the stuff you just deleted by mistake.
A paranoid dba is a good dba 🙂
Proving once again that even good ideas can be improved!
Great script, David.
Dave
Dave
July 12, 2012 at 10:51 am
djackson 22568 (7/12/2012)
Antares686 (7/11/2012)
The same goes with arguements with the wife, she get's very mad with me becuase I won't just accept she is right if I feel she is incorrect or proof needs to be given. Those moments are the worst, she goes on how I am arguementative and always have to be right and I have to rein her in by reminding her arguements require more thsan one person, and two no one should ever just conceed on face value unless they know the other person is right.Exactly! I hear this all the time as well. My previous point about all of us having an opinion and thinking we are right ties in with this. Show me proof and I will gladly change my opinion. I fondly remember a situation where I refactored some code and reduced it by about 2/3rds. People screamed "this isn't right" because my code was much cleaner, shorter and in the end corrected mistakes they had made. I had to prove to them my code was correct, but I had to first spend a huge amount of time convincing them it was worth looking at.
Been there done that, took over an app with something like 57000 line of code, rewrote it into something like 18000 lines. Majority was simple find and replace.
On that note my favorite Bill Gates quote
Measuring programming progress by lines of code is like measuring aircraft building progress by weight.
July 12, 2012 at 8:04 pm
I was once told "if you are not making mistakes, chances are you aren't doing anything".
Every one makes mistakes, the important thing is to learn from them
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