June 8, 2011 at 11:32 am
Revenant (6/8/2011)
Elliott, I guess you are right, in most cases and in this litigious society. However, so far I always got the answers I asked for -- I always stressed that getting this info is the last condition for the candidate getting the job. And if the candidate was as good as he (typically) claims and did a good job for them, they are willling to help.
Then I think you have been lucky. A former boss was very clear about this, company policy is all correspondence about former staff is handled by HR, no exceptions. This is especially true as the companies get larger, smaller companies less so..
CEWII
June 8, 2011 at 12:05 pm
Elliott
I read your reply and wonder whenre does the former employer's right to cover their *** ends and where my right to get technically relevant information about a prospective hire begins. Eventually this might go as far as the candidate suing a former employer that by not providing technicla info they prevented him from getting employment.
Let's hope and pray it will never get there.
June 8, 2011 at 12:22 pm
Revenant (6/8/2011)
ElliottI read your reply and wonder whenre does the former employer's right to cover their *** ends and where my right to get technically relevant information about a prospective hire begins. Eventually this might go as far as the candidate suing a former employer that by not providing technicla info they prevented him from getting employment.
Let's hope and pray it will never get there.
The only thing a previous employer must disclose is your existance at having worked at a firm and your hiring/leaving dates. That's it. Anything else is gratis.
Never stop learning, even if it hurts. Ego bruises are practically mandatory as you learn unless you've never risked enough to make a mistake.
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June 8, 2011 at 12:54 pm
Craig Farrell (6/8/2011)
The only thing a previous employer must disclose is your existance at having worked at a firm and your hiring/leaving dates. That's it. Anything else is gratis.
This should vary by the state, shouldn't it? (Not that I like legal aspects of any hiring, anywhere any any time, I am leaving that gladly to the others.)
June 8, 2011 at 1:04 pm
Revenant (6/8/2011)
Craig Farrell (6/8/2011)
The only thing a previous employer must disclose is your existance at having worked at a firm and your hiring/leaving dates. That's it. Anything else is gratis.This should vary by the state, shouldn't it? (Not that I like legal aspects of any hiring, anywhere any any time, I am leaving that gladly to the others.)
I'd need to re-confirm with HR/Legal departments, but afaik, no. That's the federal guideline (US).
Never stop learning, even if it hurts. Ego bruises are practically mandatory as you learn unless you've never risked enough to make a mistake.
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June 8, 2011 at 1:20 pm
Revenant (6/8/2011)
ElliottI read your reply and wonder whenre does the former employer's right to cover their *** ends and where my right to get technically relevant information about a prospective hire begins. Eventually this might go as far as the candidate suing a former employer that by not providing technicla info they prevented him from getting employment.
Let's hope and pray it will never get there.
I have to challenge that entire premise. You have no "rights" in this context, a former employer has no legal or ethical obligation to do anything, beyond what the law requires which is usually at LEAST dates of employment. Additional information may be available depending on state law. But when people start talking about "rights" where none exist it gets me going.. YOU HAVE NO RIGHTS HERE.
I would say that case law supports that a candidate cannot sue a former employer for providing factually accurate data but only what the law requires just because YOU wanted more. They could reasonably sue YOU for such a requirement.. And I wouldn't want to go to a jury on that..
CEWII
June 8, 2011 at 1:27 pm
". . . That's the federal guideline (US)."
On a secopnd thought, it does sound like something that came from the DC. I am afraid the next step will be to enact legislation that will prohibit asking any technical questions because it might discriminate against candidates who do not know the answers.
Let's leave this for now, it is getting too far from SQLS.
June 9, 2011 at 7:29 am
Revenant (6/8/2011)
". . . That's the federal guideline (US)."On a secopnd thought, it does sound like something that came from the DC. I am afraid the next step will be to enact legislation that will prohibit asking any technical questions because it might discriminate against candidates who do not know the answers.
Let's leave this for now, it is getting too far from SQLS.
I bet we could get an "Americans With Incompetence Syndrome Act" passed through our current legislature. Get "Total Ignorance and Incompetence Syndrome" into the DSM-VI (or whatever edition they're up to next), get it defined as a disability, and bang, we've got a whole new revenue stream for litigation attorneys! Justify it as a "learning disorder", and Eli Lilly and their companions in crime could probably make (another) fortune off of a drug that helps people feel less bad about being totally useless. I'm seeing a real chance to make billions of dollars for lobbyists, big pharma, etc., here folks! How can possibly pass up on a chance to get in on the ground floor of this one? 😛
- Gus "GSquared", RSVP, OODA, MAP, NMVP, FAQ, SAT, SQL, DNA, RNA, UOI, IOU, AM, PM, AD, BC, BCE, USA, UN, CF, ROFL, LOL, ETC
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"Nobody knows the age of the human race, but everyone agrees it's old enough to know better." - Anon
June 13, 2011 at 3:06 pm
I have been in the field for a long time and have solved a lot of real life "puzzles". However, on a recent interview I was asked to solve a logical puzzle in front of my interviewer. I was not able to figure it out right there on the spot and I saw that the manager had lost his interest immediately. Almost immediately after the interview the correct answer came to me, but it was too late. My skills set perfectly matched the job and I've done a number of real life projects that the company was working on. However that logical question was a deal breaker. I really felt that it was their loss and not mine because I was definitely fit for the job.
June 13, 2011 at 4:36 pm
You bet it was their loss. The ability to solve a puzzle under the pressure of the interview does not say much about your general problems solving abilities. You can think of the extreme example of being asked whether a 35-digit number is prime. There are a few individuals who can answer that in less than a minute. What does this say about their real life problem solving ability?
Not much, I think.
June 13, 2011 at 5:16 pm
I refuse to answer puzzles. Someone that depends too much on them isn't really looking at finding a good fit, they're looking for a particular person. And that's not me.
Probably not a good fit, and hope you find a better job soon.
June 13, 2011 at 5:28 pm
Good point, Steve. All too often the prospective employer already knows who will get the job but they have to go through the hoops and "interview" a certain number of candidates. They need reasons to turn them down.
Just like you, I have been around long enough not to play this game.
June 13, 2011 at 5:43 pm
Revenant (6/13/2011)
Good point, Steve. All too often the prospective employer already knows who will get the job but they have to go through the hoops and "interview" a certain number of candidates. They need reasons to turn them down.Just like you, I have been around long enough not to play this game.
Yeah, I hate it when they interview you for the "Job for Bob".
I don't mind the open ended riddles, like the infamous "Mt. Fuji". It helps me to understand how a candidate thinks and approaches a problem. If I need a designer I don't want a troubleshooting methodology, or vice versa. Riddles with a single answer are basically useless.
If you can't think at all that'll come out. Dealing with someone in a high pressure situation who needs to have functional critical thinking is expected (DBA work at 3 AM, for example). Dealing with someone who's stressed out, worried to disappoint, and handing them a Sphinxian Riddle is just silly.
Never stop learning, even if it hurts. Ego bruises are practically mandatory as you learn unless you've never risked enough to make a mistake.
For better assistance in answering your questions[/url] | Forum Netiquette
For index/tuning help, follow these directions.[/url] |Tally Tables[/url]
Twitter: @AnyWayDBA
July 7, 2015 at 3:05 am
Elliott Whitlow (6/8/2011)
Revenant (6/8/2011)
Elliott, I guess you are right, in most cases and in this litigious society. However, so far I always got the answers I asked for -- I always stressed that getting this info is the last condition for the candidate getting the job. And if the candidate was as good as he (typically) claims and did a good job for them, they are willling to help.Then I think you have been lucky. A former boss was very clear about this, company policy is all correspondence about former staff is handled by HR, no exceptions. This is especially true as the companies get larger, smaller companies less so..
CEWII
I had one potential employer who admitted that they go to previous HR to confirm job title and length of service, because that is all they could get, or willing to give when they had to give a reference themselves. It was the next request that then flummoxed me, when they asked for a personal reference. Same conditions apply to being sued, even if it is a personal reference, unless your friend is a lawyer.
July 7, 2015 at 3:13 am
Evil Kraig F (6/13/2011)
Revenant (6/13/2011)
Good point, Steve. All too often the prospective employer already knows who will get the job but they have to go through the hoops and "interview" a certain number of candidates. They need reasons to turn them down.Just like you, I have been around long enough not to play this game.
Yeah, I hate it when they interview you for the "Job for Bob".
I don't mind the open ended riddles, like the infamous "Mt. Fuji". It helps me to understand how a candidate thinks and approaches a problem. If I need a designer I don't want a troubleshooting methodology, or vice versa. Riddles with a single answer are basically useless.
If you can't think at all that'll come out. Dealing with someone in a high pressure situation who needs to have functional critical thinking is expected (DBA work at 3 AM, for example). Dealing with someone who's stressed out, worried to disappoint, and handing them a Sphinxian Riddle is just silly.
Don't know where I heard this one: At an interview a person was asked how to solve a particular issue, when their own team was stumped for a considerable time (weeks+). The reply was to ask the interviewers what expectation they had for the solution to be correct in only 30 seconds of thought.
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