October 6, 2010 at 9:24 am
The ability to work from home does help in many matters.
My cousin (female) has a four month old son, who is currently suffering from colic, and screaming the house down 24-7.
According to the family grapevine, she told her husband (a programmer) in no uncertain terms that he was working from home until junior had recovered.
That way the child care was shared, and the husband was able to continue with losing any sick days.
A few years ago this would have been impossible.
Tim
October 6, 2010 at 9:30 am
craig.cannon (10/6/2010)
JenMidnightDBA (10/6/2010)
The quote is meant to convey how you have all kinds of people within a group: there are good men and bad, smart and dumb, fair and not. Ditto women. And of course there are differences between women and men: biological, physical, even (generally) tempremental (ooh, that's gonna start a fight!). But one can't simply say "men are more suited to IT" and be done with it.
The statement about the numbers is my opinion, which does involve logic. We may disagree, and we're fine, but I'm not being illogical.
Agreed. Sorry for the unneccesary commentary.
Nono, not at all! I'm liking all the back and forth on the forum today...
October 6, 2010 at 9:39 am
Things are changing. The differences between men and women where responsibility and priorities are concerned is quickly approaching equilibrium.
Case in point: when I left the military I was raising my son alone cause his mother first left me, then left him as well when she decided to move out of state (we had 50/50 custody). So as a single dad, I worked 40 hours a week and still managed to get a 4 year CIS degree at night.
To be honest, I don't think there's a problem concerning women in IT. In general, women are not as attracted to engineering related professions as are men. Vice versa for fashion. I don't see that as a problem; I see that as a difference at the genetic level. Men often are more influenced by the left side of the brain and women the right. That's the way we've developed over thousands of years. It's a problem?
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October 6, 2010 at 9:41 am
JenMidnightDBA (10/6/2010)
Matt Cherwin (10/6/2010)
I'm not sure I can agree with this - the nature of the field is geeky. That is: the desire to dive into the technology and ferret out the details, to see for yourself how something works, to spend time using and learning the technology not just because you're getting paid, but because you love working with technology is both the definition of "geek" and a description of all the good IT people I know and have worked with.I thought that my comment would draw somebody out. I don't think that you have to be a geek to be curious, hardworking, and intelligent. The geek factor really refers to a lot of the nerd culture that tends to go along with IT: Star Wars, Nerf fights, bad glasses, late nights with Red Bull (or the sugar nectar of your choice)...
Ah - to that extent, I don't disagree at all. You don't have to know Han shot first to be a good IT pro, by any means. I was operating with a different definition of "geek" - not the geek by culture, but the geek by temperament. "Traditional" geek culture tends to correlate highly with the geek temperament, of course, but is hardly a necessary condition.
Of course, that touches on another barrier to the IT workplace: to some extent, at least, I belong to both the culture and temperament. The latter helps make me (I hope!) a decent DBA. The former, however, means that I tend to form fuller relationships with coworkers who share some of those cultural norms. Insofar as that happens, I can see how "the IT department" would be somewhat off-putting to someone who doesn't share that geek culture, even if he shares the geek temperament. While that potentially affects both sexes equally, to whatever extent men tend towards the geek culture more than women, that will be a proportionately larger barrier to entry for women.
I'm not sure what can - or even should - be done about that.
[Quote]Put another way, I think the focus needs to be on removing the social barriers to girls geeking out over technology (and math, and science, and engineering, and all the other "boy" areas); the rest will follow naturally. I don't think focusing on getting more people into the field irrespective of really enjoying the field is the answer.
I agree entirely! By talking about the numbers, I give the impression that all I care about is a 50/50 split of men and women working on computers. Of course I only want people in the field that are good at it and dedicated to it![/quote]
Not at all; I didn't get that impression from you - quite the opposite, you come across as entirely focused on making sure that there aren't artificial barriers to women (or anyone else) wanting to work in IT. I simply misinterpreted what you meant by "geek," and therefore gave a response that completely missed your point.
Which might be why they don't invite me to meetings anymore. 😉
But men and women aren't that different. Or, to quote my mother, there are more differences within a gender than between the genders. The numbers tell me that, right now, something is preventing the natural equilibrium of men and women in IT.
I think your mother's right...but I also think that's not the whole picture. Let me hack up an ASCII Venn diagram to see if I can illustrate what I mean:
+++++++++++++++++++++
+ +
+ ooooooooooooooooooooo
+ o + o
+ o + o
+ o + o
+ o + o
+ o + o
+ o + o
+ o + o
++o++++++++++++++++++ o
o o
ooooooooooooooooooooo
That's strangely offset and square, but I hope you can see what I mean - if the '+' square is the set of men, and the 'o' square is the set of women, and the distance on the graph represents "differences" in some fashion, it's obvious that's there's more distance between the upper left 'o' and the lower right 'o' than overall difference between the sets. But there's still an area in each set that has no overlap.
Now, please don't take this too literally - I by no means intend to say that there are traits men have that no women have, or vice versa, just that I think there are some differences between the sexes as a whole that can be meaningful to think about. For example, this study (that's the abstract, the full article is behind a paywall; sorry) finds that male vervet monkeys exhibit preferences towards traditionally male childrens' toys (in this case, a police truck), while female vervet monkeys exhibit preferences towards traditionally female childrens' toys (in this case, a doll).
Obviously, the subject is vastly more complex than can be addressed by a single study, but it does seem to indicate that there exist differences between the sexes that are not purely driven by socialization.
And holy wow, have I gone off the rails here and rambled on. Apologies to all; I just find this a fascinating and complicated topic. It's relatively easy to identify that there exists a problem, but trying to drill into it to define it in detail - much less solve it - is hard.
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Twitter: @Control_Group
October 6, 2010 at 9:44 am
tim.short (10/6/2010)
..That way the child care was shared, and the husband was able to continue with losing any sick days.
A few years ago this would have been impossible.
Tim
This is the key point. It's not about numbers, indeed we should not expect numbers to be equal. We need to be sure the options are there for those who wish to take them.
As I mentioned in the other thread, we do not escape being mammals simply because we're at the current top of the food chain. Mammals universally have different temperaments and behaviors between males and females. So it should be no surprise that what people want to do may coalesce roughly along gender lines. No problem as long as it's not coerced.
...
-- FORTRAN manual for Xerox Computers --
October 6, 2010 at 9:50 am
jay holovacs (10/6/2010)
This is the key point. It's not about numbers, indeed we should not expect numbers to be equal. We need to be sure the options are there for those who wish to take them.
This is the key, and it's what I wanted to get across with this week.
It's easy to say "women aren't as interested", but that doesn't necessarily bear out. Plenty of women do feel pressure, or are intimidated into not choosing a "Geeky" profession or even hobby.
I'd like people to try and pursue their interests, not be turned away. I'm not against them working in other fields, but since I work in this one, I encourage them to try this one if they have an interest. Let doctors encourage people to that field. Let botanists encourage people there. As IT people, I look to encourage people into IT. I do focus a little more on women and minorities, because they are under-represented. Not because they should be equal, but because I worry there is some stigma or other reason besides their own interest that has kept them away.
October 6, 2010 at 9:51 am
I had the pleasure of meeting Lilly Ledbetter and a more reasonable explaination of what Jen was talking about I don't think can be found. We all bring something to the picture and the more diversity the better. I would have to say that I've been in this field since 1977 in one aspect or another and the two most idolic DBA's I've met were both women. They are people who have become the DBA. Their personalities and approach to work are as caring and loving of the data as the stereotype matron.
By the way I've attended a couple of training sessions of the Midnight DBA's and you guys are cool.
For anyone interested here's the results of the fight Lilly had.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lilly_Ledbetter_Fair_Pay_Act_of_2009
October 6, 2010 at 10:16 am
amenjonathan (10/6/2010)
To be honest, I don't think there's a problem concerning women in IT. In general, women are not as attracted to engineering related professions as are men. Vice versa for fashion. I don't see that as a problem; I see that as a difference at the genetic level. Men often are more influenced by the left side of the brain and women the right. That's the way we've developed over thousands of years. It's a problem?
I'm willing to accept a certain level of predisposition one way or another. My young boys were into toys that MOVE and ROLL and DO STUFF. My daughter was into toys with faces. It's iconic, sure. But, it's not the whole story, and it's extremely dismissive to say that there isn't an issue. Your point is, in summary, "The differences between men and women explain the gap."
People are writing and talking about personal and anecdotal experiences. Studies are being conducted, articles written. In my little blog alone, I've covered maybe a dozen different facets to the Women in Technology discussion, and they're mostly still open-ended questions, like this editorial. We're not running out of things to talk about...it may be true that men tend to be more attracted to technology, but it's not the whole story.
October 6, 2010 at 10:21 am
Matt Cherwin (10/6/2010)
While that potentially affects both sexes equally, to whatever extent men tend towards the geek culture more than women, that will be a proportionately larger barrier to entry for women.I'm not sure what can - or even should - be done about that.
Let's start simple: Let's make computers cool to grade school boys AND girls. We attack peer pressure about drugs from boys' and girls' perspectives. Ad companies market products differently to male and female children. So let's concentrate on that, both at home and in private and public industry!
We gave my daughter a laptop when she was five. My sons - 5 and 2 - already have a hand-me-down laptop that's theirs to use. We're off to a good start at home. 🙂
October 6, 2010 at 10:23 am
Steve Jones - SSC Editor (10/6/2010)
Let doctors encourage people to that field. Let botanists encourage people there. As IT people, I look to encourage people into IT. I do focus a little more on women and minorities, because they are under-represented. Not because they should be equal, but because I worry there is some stigma or other reason besides their own interest that has kept them away.
Well said!!
Bob Lee (10/6/2010)
By the way I've attended a couple of training sessions of the Midnight DBA's and you guys are cool.
Ha, thanks! We'll always accept compliments!
October 6, 2010 at 10:23 am
JenMidnightDBA (10/6/2010)
Let's start simple: Let's make computers cool to grade school boys AND girls. We attack peer pressure about drugs from boys' and girls' perspectives. Ad companies market products differently to male and female children. So let's concentrate on that, both at home and in private and public industry!
We gave my daughter a laptop when she was five. My sons - 5 and 2 - already have a hand-me-down laptop that's theirs to use. We're off to a good start at home. 🙂
I don't want any of my kids on computers until later (the sons or the daughter) 🙂 No darn cell phone either. Some days I wonder if Ted Kaczynski had a point about technology... 😉 (alright maybe I don't think -that- but...)
__________________________________________________
Mike Walsh
SQL Server DBA
Blog - www.straightpathsql.com/blog |Twitter
October 6, 2010 at 10:39 am
JenMidnightDBA (10/6/2010)
amenjonathan (10/6/2010)
To be honest, I don't think there's a problem concerning women in IT. In general, women are not as attracted to engineering related professions as are men. Vice versa for fashion. I don't see that as a problem; I see that as a difference at the genetic level. Men often are more influenced by the left side of the brain and women the right. That's the way we've developed over thousands of years. It's a problem?I'm willing to accept a certain level of predisposition one way or another. My young boys were into toys that MOVE and ROLL and DO STUFF. My daughter was into toys with faces. It's iconic, sure. But, it's not the whole story, and it's extremely dismissive to say that there isn't an issue. Your point is, in summary, "The differences between men and women explain the gap."
People are writing and talking about personal and anecdotal experiences. Studies are being conducted, articles written. In my little blog alone, I've covered maybe a dozen different facets to the Women in Technology discussion, and they're mostly still open-ended questions, like this editorial. We're not running out of things to talk about...it may be true that men tend to be more attracted to technology, but it's not the whole story.
IMO it explains 80+% of it. But really that still doesn't make it an issue. Maybe that's because I don't really care if someone is a man or a woman here at work. All I care about is if they're good at what they do or not. Professionalism helps as well.
Sometimes we make issues where there isn't one? Why do we need more women in IT? Why do we need more men in cosmotology? Who cares if IT is all men, all women, less men than women, etc etc. People choose to major and go into industries that interest them. That should be all the explaination necessary. It's not like schools have 'boys only' computer labs, etc. The same exposure is there for both girls and boys, if they choose to expose themselves to it. See there, choice is what makes all the difference.
My family specifically, we don't buy toys we want our boys to play with; we let them choose which toys they like. We do filter out very violent toys, but that's about it. What they like is just what they like. Am I worried they don't play with dolls and wear enough pink? Not really. Why should I be? Just let them grow up and think on their own. If they want to style hair or build computers, I don't really care, so long as their goals are realistic.
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My SQL Server Blog
October 6, 2010 at 11:26 am
amenjonathan (10/6/2010)
Sometimes we make issues where there isn't one? Why do we need more women in IT? Why do we need more men in cosmotology? Who cares if IT is all men, all women, less men than women, etc etc. People choose to major and go into industries that interest them. That should be all the explaination necessary. It's not like schools have 'boys only' computer labs, etc. The same exposure is there for both girls and boys, if they choose to expose themselves to it. See there, choice is what makes all the difference.
That's a nice thought, but again, it's not the whole story. Let's go back to the extreme example: as told by our exchange student, in Chine women can get a good education and become doctors and professors and scientists, but they're discouraged against it because it's not "ladylike", and it's harder to find a husband. So what's the big deal? They're free to choose what they like!
The problem isn't necessarily that IT needs more women (though we can certainly fight that fight, too). The problem is the remaining pressures and assumptions pushing girls away from opportunities they might otherwise jump on. As I've said, we're at the tail end of a very long history of telling girls that THIS or THAT is not an appropriate career, or that it's uncool, unladylike, or whatever. Most of the obvious and blatant pressures are gone, and for that I'm thankful. But in the meantime, I grew up (and my daughter is growing up) exposed to some very conflicting images of and ideas about women, and it does make a difference.
The good news is that it really does seem to be the tail end of the problem, and so the best and biggest remedy is this: talking about it, debating it, getting awareness up. The more we point the finger at the last vestiges of inequality, the more they shrink away.
October 6, 2010 at 11:28 am
mike_walsh (10/6/2010)
I don't want any of my kids on computers until later (the sons or the daughter) 🙂 No darn cell phone either. Some days I wonder if Ted Kaczynski had a point about technology... 😉 (alright maybe I don't think -that- but...)
I can support that. We've just started exposure early...we still limit computer time and TV time (like most do), and make sure there's enough running around and being kids.
October 6, 2010 at 11:58 am
JenMidnightDBA (10/6/2010)
...being a parent is still considered secondary to being a provider, no matter what we may say.
Being a provider should come before being a parent.
People need to be able to provide for their kids before they have them.
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