October 6, 2010 at 8:37 am
My wife stays home with our kids (5, 2 and 4 months). She home schools our oldest daughter and her day is grueling. She chose to do this. We can afford day care. My wife is incredibly intelligent and could do just about anything she set out to do. She has hobbies, skills and interests that qualify her for a wide variety of jobs. That being said, she felt like she should be home with our kids, instilling our values in them (Yes, allowing them to express creativity and someday choose their own path but shaped by us). We've had chats about it, I was the one resisting (in a way) at first wanting her to be able to do what she wanted. This is what she wanted.
While I applaud the Women In Technology group and I have great working relationships with a lot of women who work in technology, I sometimes wonder if we actually need more "Women Who Stay Home" groups 🙂 In the working world when out at work events with families or hanging out with coworkers who are women, I see the reaction my wife gets when talking to folks about what she chooses to do. It tends to be one of two reactions:
A.) "You do?! Oh I'm so jealous! I wish I could do that!" (or some derivative thereof) (and the answer there tends to be simple.. we just make it work. We don't drive fancy cars, we have a tight budget and I do some consulting here and there, we make do and live within our means)
or
B.) Strange reaction. Not turning their nose up but more like a "Oh. You do?!" in a frumpish/frowny type of response.
I think we've come along ways as far as getting women into the workforce in this country. You name the career you find women there. I think it's gone almost so far that those who choose to stay home to raise a family are looked at as outcasts. I think more could be done for equal pay, respect, etc. in the workforce - I am all about showing no favoritism and rewarding hard work, not gender, union membership, race, etc. Pay for performance. I just sometimes look at the WIT groups and wonder what kind of reaction my wife would get for choosing what she has chosen to do. When the kids are older, I am sure she'll get more active in outside of the home work, or perhaps a ministry or volunteer opportunities.
I don't really know what I am saying here. I like the WIT group and support it and I look forward to letting my daughter see what I do as she gets older. I look forward to getting her geeked out with electronics projects and chemistry sets just as much as I look forward to doing that with my sons. I just don't like the Type B. responses she gets. Sometimes I don't even like the Type A responses because I know some of them well enough to know that they could stay home if they are truly jealous and truly wished to, they'd just have to clamp down on discretionary spending somewhat.
I love that I live in a country where that choice does and that a woman can choose to stay home or choose to work.
I also know that my wife works so, so much harder than I could ever dream of doing. By the time I get home from work (sitting in my office, talking to adults, worrying about where to go for lunch some days, and "playing" with a technology I love to work with) she's had a very very long and trying day.
__________________________________________________
Mike Walsh
SQL Server DBA
Blog - www.straightpathsql.com/blog |Twitter
October 6, 2010 at 8:40 am
JenMidnightDBA (10/6/2010)
Again, it's not that I, as a DBA in Company A, get paid less than the male DBA "Bob" in Company A (or even in Company B) just because I'm a woman. It's that women in general - meaning IT in general - make less than men in IT. It's a complicated subject, and I go over a few of the questions in my blog "You Earn More Than I Do[/url]"
grahamc:
But there is a problem in that logic... all the male DBAs get different salaries in the same and different companies. When I started as a permanent DBA I was on 28K and my last permanent role paid 55K.
Quite honestly I think an issue is being made out of nothing..... if you are getting less, negotiate for more!!
[/quote]
You might have misunderstood me. I understand that different people will be paid differently based on experience, circumstance, etc. I don't think anyone is demanding that all DBAs at a company are paid the same dollar amount. But women are being paid less than men in IT, and we're exploring the reasons why. How much of it is an unfair disparity in pay? How much is affected by womens' focus on family over career? How much is due to the culture, or the negotiations, etc etc?
I'm not crying "foul" over unfair pay...I want to find out WHY women make less. I know where I am, and I even discuss my circumstances on my blog. But I'm interested in making the best of things for my children, friends, and people all over.
Also, my previous boss was willing to pay more to get a female into the team, 4 male DBAs, 3 male SOA admins and him sorely out-numbered the 1 lady. The problem was that there were none at a decent level worth considering....
You actually make a good point: there aren't enough women in the field to have the spectrum of experience available for hiring managers. Instead of 30 over, 30 under, and 30 perfectly qualified femals candidates, a manager may only find 1, 1, and 1. We're working on that, too 🙂
October 6, 2010 at 8:47 am
JenMidnightDBA (10/6/2010)
JenMidnightDBA (10/6/2010)
Again, it's not that I, as a DBA in Company A, get paid less than the male DBA "Bob" in Company A (or even in Company B) just because I'm a woman. It's that women in general - meaning IT in general - make less than men in IT. It's a complicated subject, and I go over a few of the questions in my blog "You Earn More Than I Do[/url]"
grahamc:
But there is a problem in that logic... all the male DBAs get different salaries in the same and different companies. When I started as a permanent DBA I was on 28K and my last permanent role paid 55K.
Quite honestly I think an issue is being made out of nothing..... if you are getting less, negotiate for more!!
You might have misunderstood me. I understand that different people will be paid differently based on experience, circumstance, etc. I don't think anyone is demanding that all DBAs at a company are paid the same dollar amount. But women are being paid less than men in IT, and we're exploring the reasons why. How much of it is an unfair disparity in pay? How much is affected by womens' focus on family over career? How much is due to the culture, or the negotiations, etc etc?
I'm not crying "foul" over unfair pay...I want to find out WHY women make less. I know where I am, and I even discuss my circumstances on my blog. But I'm interested in making the best of things for my children, friends, and people all over.
Also, my previous boss was willing to pay more to get a female into the team, 4 male DBAs, 3 male SOA admins and him sorely out-numbered the 1 lady. The problem was that there were none at a decent level worth considering....
You actually make a good point: there aren't enough women in the field to have the spectrum of experience available for hiring managers. Instead of 30 over, 30 under, and 30 perfectly qualified femals candidates, a manager may only find 1, 1, and 1. We're working on that, too 🙂
I understand what you are saying, just from what I have not seen/experienced it and I think I may know why........I have spent the last 5 years in working in the UK, now I am working in Switzerland. Maybe (just maybe) its a location "thing".
October 6, 2010 at 8:51 am
Matt Cherwin (10/6/2010)
I'm not sure I can agree with this - the nature of the field is geeky. That is: the desire to dive into the technology and ferret out the details, to see for yourself how something works, to spend time using and learning the technology not just because you're getting paid, but because you love working with technology is both the definition of "geek" and a description of all the good IT people I know and have worked with.
I thought that my comment would draw somebody out. I don't think that you have to be a geek to be curious, hardworking, and intelligent. The geek factor really refers to a lot of the nerd culture that tends to go along with IT: Star Wars, Nerf fights, bad glasses, late nights with Red Bull (or the sugar nectar of your choice)...
[Quote]Put another way, I think the focus needs to be on removing the social barriers to girls geeking out over technology (and math, and science, and engineering, and all the other "boy" areas); the rest will follow naturally. I don't think focusing on getting more people into the field irrespective of really enjoying the field is the answer.[/quote]
I agree entirely! By talking about the numbers, I give the impression that all I care about is a 50/50 split of men and women working on computers. Of course I only want people in the field that are good at it and dedicated to it!
But men and women aren't that different. Or, to quote my mother, there are more differences within a gender than between the genders. The numbers tell me that, right now, something is preventing the natural equilibrium of men and women in IT.
October 6, 2010 at 8:52 am
It's really nice to be able to have such a frank and rational discussion on such an emotive topic.
Forum discussions on gender inequality often seem to descend rapidy into angry rants based on unjustified generalisations and accusations of misogyny. Some of the responses, particularly from working parents are really enlightening. I wonder if IT people are an atypically rational group? 🙂
October 6, 2010 at 8:56 am
WillC9999 (10/6/2010)
It's really nice to be able to have such a frank and rational discussion on such an emotive topic.Forum discussions on gender inequality often seem to descend rapidy into angry rants based on unjustified generalisations and accusations of misogyny. Some of the responses, particularly from working parents are really enlightening. I wonder if IT people are an atypically rational group? 🙂
Only on these sorts of topics... ask one of the DBAs about CURSORs and it will quickly descend into the fire pits of hell!!! :crazy:
October 6, 2010 at 8:57 am
Ha! Every group has its demons 🙂
October 6, 2010 at 8:58 am
JenMidnightDBA (10/6/2010)
But men and women aren't that different. Or, to quote my mother, there are more differences within a gender than between the genders. The numbers tell me that, right now, something is preventing the natural equilibrium of men and women in IT.
That is too general a statement to be true, or false for that matter. I know you know that. We are getting to the edge of logic here and getting to something else entirely.
October 6, 2010 at 8:59 am
grahamc (10/6/2010)
WillC9999 (10/6/2010)
It's really nice to be able to have such a frank and rational discussion on such an emotive topic.Forum discussions on gender inequality often seem to descend rapidy into angry rants based on unjustified generalisations and accusations of misogyny. Some of the responses, particularly from working parents are really enlightening. I wonder if IT people are an atypically rational group? 🙂
Only on these sorts of topics... ask one of the DBAs about CURSORs and it will quickly descend into the fire pits of hell!!! :crazy:
You could also just search for a topic with ERM, ORM, nHibernate, etc. You'll find some irrational and angry comments. :hehe:
__________________________________________________
Mike Walsh
SQL Server DBA
Blog - www.straightpathsql.com/blog |Twitter
October 6, 2010 at 8:59 am
mike_walsh (10/6/2010)
While I applaud the Women In Technology group and I have great working relationships with a lot of women who work in technology, I sometimes wonder if we actually need more "Women Who Stay Home" groups 🙂...
I think it's gone almost so far that those who choose to stay home to raise a family are looked at as outcasts. I think more could be done for equal pay, respect, etc. in the workforce - I am all about showing no favoritism and rewarding hard work, not gender, union membership, race, etc. Pay for performance. I just sometimes look at the WIT groups and wonder what kind of reaction my wife would get for choosing what she has chosen to do.
First, good for you and your wife! I stayed home with my boys for 4 years, and I'm working part time now so that I can have more time with my 2 year old. I experienced a lot of those same attitudes when I stayed home, and that's definitely something else that needs work.
But WIT and the Stay-at-Home movement aren't at odds. WIT isn't interested in drafting women to work slavishly at computers they hate, any more than SAHM groups want to force women out of the workforce. We want the same thing: The social and financial freedom to do what we think is most important at any given time. Doing that takes a good education, hard work, luck, and a support team. Those of us like me, like your wife, and like the women in technology I know are in a very priviledged position that we've worked for. We want to open that position up to as many people as possible.
October 6, 2010 at 9:00 am
WillC9999 (10/6/2010)
It's really nice to be able to have such a frank and rational discussion on such an emotive topic.Forum discussions on gender inequality often seem to descend rapidy into angry rants based on unjustified generalisations and accusations of misogyny. Some of the responses, particularly from working parents are really enlightening. I wonder if IT people are an atypically rational group? 🙂
Hah....nice try, but no. We've just been lucky so far in this thread. Want me to throw something? 🙂
October 6, 2010 at 9:03 am
craig.cannon (10/6/2010)
JenMidnightDBA (10/6/2010)
But men and women aren't that different. Or, to quote my mother, there are more differences within a gender than between the genders. The numbers tell me that, right now, something is preventing the natural equilibrium of men and women in IT.
That is too general a statement to be true, or false for that matter. I know you know that. We are getting to the edge of logic here and getting to something else entirely.
The quote is meant to convey how you have all kinds of people within a group: there are good men and bad, smart and dumb, fair and not. Ditto women. And of course there are differences between women and men: biological, physical, even (generally) tempremental (ooh, that's gonna start a fight!). But one can't simply say "men are more suited to IT" and be done with it.
The statement about the numbers is my opinion, which does involve logic. We may disagree, and we're fine, but I'm not being illogical.
October 6, 2010 at 9:06 am
JenMidnightDBA (10/6/2010)
First, good for you and your wife! I stayed home with my boys for 4 years, and I'm working part time now so that I can have more time with my 2 year old. I experienced a lot of those same attitudes when I stayed home, and that's definitely something else that needs work.
But WIT and the Stay-at-Home movement aren't at odds. WIT isn't interested in drafting women to work slavishly at computers they hate, any more than SAHM groups want to force women out of the workforce. We want the same thing: The social and financial freedom to do what we think is most important at any given time. Doing that takes a good education, hard work, luck, and a support team. Those of us like me, like your wife, and like the women in technology I know are in a very priviledged position that we've worked for. We want to open that position up to as many people as possible.
Thanks - I have no problem with WIT groups because I see them not at odds. Actually some of the more rational responses I've gotten about my wife staying home were at PASS last year when getting to know some of the women members of the WIT group. I was just making a general observation that some women in the workforce could take to heart. My wife, and those in her shoes (well most anyway, I can't speak for all..) have no desire to force anyone home against their will. Just don't make them feel like outcasts for choosing to do it themselves 🙂
__________________________________________________
Mike Walsh
SQL Server DBA
Blog - www.straightpathsql.com/blog |Twitter
October 6, 2010 at 9:07 am
Noooooo! It would be too easy!
I have the "man-woman-different" argument with a female friend every so often. It *always* turns nasty. I would say it is because she is naive and has an unjustified chip on her shoulder (at least as someone living in the progressive UK). She, no doubt, sees me as a 19th century misogynist.
I often think women have it tougher now then ever with so much pressure to be wonderful at everything - career, family, relationships. But as someone else pointed out, at least they have *choice*. Amen to that 🙂
October 6, 2010 at 9:08 am
JenMidnightDBA (10/6/2010)
The quote is meant to convey how you have all kinds of people within a group: there are good men and bad, smart and dumb, fair and not. Ditto women. And of course there are differences between women and men: biological, physical, even (generally) tempremental (ooh, that's gonna start a fight!). But one can't simply say "men are more suited to IT" and be done with it.
The statement about the numbers is my opinion, which does involve logic. We may disagree, and we're fine, but I'm not being illogical.
Agreed. Sorry for the unneccesary commentary.
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