October 6, 2010 at 8:05 am
grahamc (10/6/2010)
In IT, is there really that much of a difference of pay between men and women? I used to work for a development house and the difference in pay between the male developers was shocking :crazy:...
Good question. I had a survey that said there was, but I can't find the link now. I suspect there's some difference, but not sure why.
We definitely have different salaries between people in IT. I've found that it's up to me to push for the highest salary I want, and many people (women and men) don't want to negotiate.
October 6, 2010 at 8:08 am
WillC9999 (10/6/2010)
"I dragged my toddler into the data center complete with pillows and blankets for off hours calls"Should this be regarded as a good or bad thing? It's a hell of a committment for a person, particularly a single parent sturggling to make ends meet, but is it in the best interests of the child?
I am not sure I am best placed to answer as a man without children 😉
People have been taking their kids to work for all kinds of jobs. Is it good or bad? Who knows, but I've seen doctors, policemen (in office, not in field), etc. take kids to work when they've been called in.
I've taken my kids in at times, for short periods when I needed to. It happens. Both my little kids have gone to presentations I've given, and I think it's a good experience. They see Dad working, and understand that I meet my commitments. A good lesson to them.
I took my son when he was 9mos old to a company meeting since my wife was out of town. He slept in my arms, and management understood that these things happen. Companies have no issue with invading personal time if something is needed; they ought to understand when personal life invades company time.
October 6, 2010 at 8:10 am
Clarie DeWayne (10/5/2010)
As a woman in the production side of the IT/DBA business, let alone as a single mother, I believe it is very difficult for women to be fully dedicated to both family and a 24 hour support requirement at work.
Agreed, and I've talked about this before, especially with the hubby. Recognizing that generalization doesn't cover all cases, I still have to say that by and large, women still provide the majority of the child raising today, and that we often arrange priorities differently. One of the things I would like to see in my lifetime is an increase in the value that companies and individuals put on families. Right now, maternity leave is still iffy (and short), paternity leave is still rare, and being a parent is still considered secondary to being a provider, no matter what we may say.
We're on a good trend, but it's up to all of us to keep the ball rolling.
October 6, 2010 at 8:11 am
Steve Jones - SSC Editor (10/6/2010)
grahamc (10/6/2010)
In IT, is there really that much of a difference of pay between men and women? I used to work for a development house and the difference in pay between the male developers was shocking :crazy:...
Good question. I had a survey that said there was, but I can't find the link now. I suspect there's some difference, but not sure why.
We definitely have different salaries between people in IT. I've found that it's up to me to push for the highest salary I want, and many people (women and men) don't want to negotiate.
Exactly... I do a lot of negotiating to get my day-rate. Usually along the lines of first discussion the rate with rate and explaining what I expect. Either the company is happy with it or not. Then when its time to have my contract renewed, its time to negotiate again. By then I should have proven myself sufficiently to warrant an increase.
I know that the UK has a "general rule" that if you want a big increase, find another job.
October 6, 2010 at 8:12 am
This is a great deal for management. The carrot is that if you keep doing the job in "acting" or unofficial capacity long enough, including the nights and weekends, you'll get the title and salary "someday."
Yep, and this is why one of the great lessons of this generation (ish) has been to change jobs if you want a raise. That's another thing that the higher-ups in companies will have to get smarter about, if they want to keep talent!
October 6, 2010 at 8:13 am
craig.cannon (10/6/2010)
Interesting debate this morning - "we need more women in _______". The question that needs to be asked is 'Why?' Are we just after statistics? Do we want more women because it makes us feel better to be able to say 'the IT world is now x% female'?
It's not a push to get more women in to balance things, but rather to ensure that women are open to the field. If there is an interest, stereotypes and pressure ought not to push them away. Nor should attitude from males.
It's easy to say "just do what you want". It doesn't always happen and as the father of a daughter, I'd like her to consider technology. Not go into it, but consider it. As a man, you might not see that lots of girls feel pressure to *not* go into this field.
October 6, 2010 at 8:14 am
karen_cote (10/6/2010)
There are so many roles today, why do the geeks need to change to accomodate management's idea of political correctness? The type of 'oddness' that defines a geek also defines their imagination and ability to synthezise and think out of the box. I wouldn't give up my nerd herd for any price, even if it came with more women and a larger paycheck!
Agreed! I got into the field largely because of the geek factor, too. The issue isn't that we need to change, but that the field needs to be more inclusive. You shouldn't have to be a geek to get the good pay. (As much as I'd like to keep it a geeks' club, fair is fair!)
October 6, 2010 at 8:14 am
craig.cannon (10/6/2010)
Interesting debate this morning - "we need more women in _______". The question that needs to be asked is 'Why?' Are we just after statistics? Do we want more women because it makes us feel better to be able to say 'the IT world is now x% female'?I understand the need to open the door and communicate the breadth of what is available in IT, the salary, opportunity for personal growth, the many different areas, etc. And I understand the need for IT to have people with all kinds of different outlooks and life experiences.
But why the push? Why do we have the need to manipulate or to social engineer something? Why can't we let people be who they are and gravitate naturally to what makes them happy? Is it because managers/companies wouldn't do it if not made to do it? I'm curious. I'm also curious about the salary discrepancy. What are the details? Does a woman going back to work after raising kids with say 4 years experience make as much as a 26 or 28 year old man with the same experience?...
By many measures the number of women in IT has declined precipitously in the last 20 or so years. For example, the number of CS degrees awarded to women went from 37% in 1985 to 18% in 2008*. It's unlikely that this particular generation of young women just isn't interested in tech but the generation before them was. Something else is going on.
It's not "social engineering" to encouraging girls to explore math and science, it's opening their eyes to a possibility and giving them a choice. If they like it, maybe they'll pursue it as a career, but that will never happen if they are not exposed to it.
*National Center for Women & Information Technology
October 6, 2010 at 8:18 am
grahamc (10/6/2010)
In IT, is there really that much of a difference of pay between men and women?
Again, it's not that I, as a DBA in Company A, get paid less than the male DBA "Bob" in Company A (or even in Company B) just because I'm a woman. It's that women in general - meaning IT in general - make less than men in IT. It's a complicated subject, and I go over a few of the questions in my blog "You Earn More Than I Do[/url]"
October 6, 2010 at 8:21 am
jay holovacs (10/6/2010)
...many people who gravitated to the IT world started out as teenagers obsessed, and I mean obsessed, with manipulating computers (and also, parallel, obsessed with gaming). Psychologically this obsessive behavior (which is often pursued to the detriment of other social contacts) is far more common in young males than young females (who tend to vary their interests more). So the 'geek' mindset (lots of intelligent people are not geeks) has a biasing effect on the field.
I can agree with that as a generalism, and that largely explains the status of the field today. But moving forward, this should be a career also open to people who didn't experience the late night server rebuilds and DOOM customizations... 🙂
October 6, 2010 at 8:22 am
JenMidnightDBA (10/6/2010)
grahamc (10/6/2010)
In IT, is there really that much of a difference of pay between men and women?Again, it's not that I, as a DBA in Company A, get paid less than the male DBA "Bob" in Company A (or even in Company B) just because I'm a woman. It's that women in general - meaning IT in general - make less than men in IT. It's a complicated subject, and I go over a few of the questions in my blog "You Earn More Than I Do[/url]"
But there is a problem in that logic... all the male DBAs get different salaries in the same and different companies. When I started as a permanent DBA I was on 28K and my last permanent role paid 55K.
Quite honestly I think an issue is being made out of nothing..... if you are getting less, negotiate for more!! 😎
Also, my previous boss was willing to pay more to get a female into the team, 4 male DBAs, 3 male SOA admins and him sorely out-numbered the 1 lady. The problem was that there were none at a decent level worth considering....
October 6, 2010 at 8:23 am
denisemc (10/6/2010)
By many measures the number of women in IT has declined precipitously in the last 20 or so years. For example, the number of CS degrees awarded to women went from 37% in 1985 to 18% in 2008*. It's unlikely that this particular generation of young women just isn't interested in tech but the generation before them was. Something else is going on.
It's not "social engineering" to encouraging girls to explore math and science, it's opening their eyes to a possibility and giving them a choice. If they like it, maybe they'll pursue it as a career, but that will never happen if they are not exposed to it.
*National Center for Women & Information Technology
While any explanation should be on the table, in the absence of any well documented broad or organized discrimination, it is quite possible that there are other factors at work, including opening up of other fields that women as a whole find more desirable.
There is also an additional cost for taking time off in a field like IT (as well as some of the other sciences). If you pull out of accounting for 5 years, you can pretty much go back to where you left off. If you're out of IT for 5 years, you don't simply lose 5 years of promotions, but since the field has changed so drastically you effectively lose 7 or 8 years career wise. This has to be factored into the wage comparisons.
...
-- FORTRAN manual for Xerox Computers --
October 6, 2010 at 8:28 am
craig.cannon (10/6/2010)
But why the push? Why do we have the need to manipulate or to social engineer something? Why can't we let people be who they are and gravitate naturally to what makes them happy? Is it because managers/companies wouldn't do it if not made to do it? I'm curious.
I'm actually going to point you toward two of my blog posts, and even quote one (I'm apparently just THAT awesome :))...why do we want to encourage women in IT, aside from the benefits to the field itself? From my "Issues in Women in Technology[/url]":
Technology, and computers specifically, is a wonderfully lucrative field. Most DBAs I know make 1.5 to 2 times the national salary average. It’s also a highly flexible career – one set of skills feeds in to and transfers, with some effort, into another - and though IT has its down times, there are usually good jobs to be had. AND it’s about problem solving and potentially making a real difference for your company or organization. In short, it’s a good field. Why wouldn’t we want to encourage middle and high school boys and girls to get into IT?
There is still some residual, and sometimes blatant, prejudice about what careers girls should strive for, and that's just in America. Our Chinese exchange student tells us that her family all encourage her to become a teacher (or something similar), and not become too educated, because it's harder to find a husband! These ideas aren't that far gone in America. I need my daughter - all my kids - to understand not only can they do what they want to for a living, but that some careers have different advantages and enjoyments than others. I don't want women of any age just assuming that IT is too hard, or too geeky, or too whatever, for them...because it's a great living!
October 6, 2010 at 8:32 am
JenMidnightDBA (10/6/2010)
Agreed! I got into the field largely because of the geek factor, too. The issue isn't that we need to change, but that the field needs to be more inclusive. You shouldn't have to be a geek to get the good pay. (As much as I'd like to keep it a geeks' club, fair is fair!)
I'm not sure I can agree with this - the nature of the field is geeky. That is: the desire to dive into the technology and ferret out the details, to see for yourself how something works, to spend time using and learning the technology not just because you're getting paid, but because you love working with technology is both the definition of "geek" and a description of all the good IT people I know and have worked with.
I suspect everyone who's worked professionally in IT for more than a couple years can easily identify the coworkers who have been geeking out over computers since they were knee high to a fruit fly vs the coworkers who heard that you could make money by "working in computers."
Put another way, I think the focus needs to be on removing the social barriers to girls geeking out over technology (and math, and science, and engineering, and all the other "boy" areas); the rest will follow naturally. I don't think focusing on getting more people into the field irrespective of really enjoying the field is the answer.
All that said, I'm open to being convinced otherwise; it is (of course) possible that my perspective is skewed by my personal experience, which may not be representative.
______
Twitter: @Control_Group
October 6, 2010 at 8:34 am
denisemc (10/6/2010)
It's not "social engineering" to encouraging girls to explore math and science, it's opening their eyes to a possibility and giving them a choice. If they like it, maybe they'll pursue it as a career, but that will never happen if they are not exposed to it.*National Center for Women & Information Technology
Agreed. There needs to be a lot more communication about IT jobs, what exists and what they are all about. My 2 sons are in college and when I talk to their friends, I am surprised how many have majors that I would call odd and have no idea what they are going to do when they graduate.
(This also opens up the subject of the failure of society (meaning parents + high school officials) to adequately communicate and direct kids towards the best career for them. That is a generality, of course, and not the subject of discussion this week.)
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