January 20, 2011 at 6:31 am
Ferguson (1/20/2011)
Related question: In that specialty area, do you administration and physical tuning (not design) of a BI oriented database and of a transactional database as two separate specialties?
Depends. There are different ways to go. You can say you want a Data Warehouse administrator, a production DBA, or a DBA who can work with OLTP and ODS / Data Warehouse databases.
The actual administration isn't that different, but the performance tuning can be. BI oriented databases tend to be designed for fast reads, slow writes. OLTPs are designed for fast writes, but read speed depends on what the OLTP is doing.
Just make sure the DBA in question knows the difference between the two types of designs and how to tune each and you should be good to use one DBA. If you can't find anyone who can do both, or is willing to learn (and you think (s)he's trainable), then go with one of each.
January 20, 2011 at 6:33 am
Ninja's_RGR'us (1/20/2011)
There is another option. Get a superstar and then hire out consultant to patch is "holes".
I will ditto this. Maybe you just need a production DBA to maintain the servers and do basic security / maintenance tasks and then the superstar to do all the "complicated" work.
EDIT: Then your consultant / production DBA could double as the DB2 backup, leaving the highly-paid superstar to concentrate on those important ETL processes and tuning issues.
January 20, 2011 at 6:34 am
Ferguson (1/20/2011)
Where I continue to resist however is the whole generalist idea. They must be out there.
Sure they are. However you've indicated you want hotshots. Top skills. You're not going to get "Top skills" and "All areas of SQL" in one person (at least not one you can afford). Hotshots specialise. You can't expect someone to be a hotshot in the entire SQL product. It's too big. If you want someone who's a hotshot in one area and generalist in others, you need to indicate that. Otherwise you're scaring off the really hotshot admins who know a bit of dev but aren't experts and you're going to attract the mediocre type who think they're experts in everything.
To me that's just normal practice -- but it appears to be a presumption here (at least by some) that with zero hints on salary that it was already going to under-pay. Why is that?
Experience. 🙁
Gail Shaw
Microsoft Certified Master: SQL Server, MVP, M.Sc (Comp Sci)
SQL In The Wild: Discussions on DB performance with occasional diversions into recoverability
January 20, 2011 at 7:14 am
Here's a description I got for a "DBA" position back when I was job hunting in September:
Must have advanced proficiency and extensive knowledge of web development and design technologies, and publishing , experience in designing web-based applications in PHP, ColdFusion and ASP.NET, expert level skills in Microsoft SQL Server, MySQL, Stored Procedure development, and Object Data Base Connections (ODBC) and DTS as well as experience defining and creating complex Web Services. Requires expert level skills in JavaScript, HTML and CSS, extensive understanding of XML and related technologies, plus expert level understanding of web protocols such as HTTP, HTTPS, FTP, and SMTP, SSL and encryption technologies as they relate to e-commerce. Requires extensive understanding of ColdFusion and SQL Server software installation procedures as well as expert level skills in database backup and recovery. Also requires use and detailed understanding of Streaming Video encoding applications and Players, particularly Windows Media Encoder/Player and Flash COM Server. Advanced skills in Macromedia development tools and standard desktop applications such as MS Office also required. Must be able to successfully handle multiple tasks/projects and have excellent technical writing skills (including requirements, specifications, status reports, flowcharts and project plans).
I pointed out that was a whole software company, not an individual.
- Gus "GSquared", RSVP, OODA, MAP, NMVP, FAQ, SAT, SQL, DNA, RNA, UOI, IOU, AM, PM, AD, BC, BCE, USA, UN, CF, ROFL, LOL, ETC
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January 20, 2011 at 7:22 am
What was the payscale for that job?? :w00t::-P:hehe:
January 20, 2011 at 7:23 am
GSquared (1/20/2011)
... Object Data Base Connections (ODBC)
Well to start, ODBC does not stand for Object Data Base Connection. Buzzword scrabble time.
plus expert level understanding of web protocols such as HTTP, HTTPS, FTP, and SMTP, SSL and encryption technologies as they relate to e-commerce.
Expert level as in quote the RFC and implement them from scratch? Good luck finding many people that can do that.
Requires extensive understanding of ColdFusion and SQL Server software installation procedures
Coldfusion and SQL Server in the same sentence? I am not installing Coldfusion on my SQL Server. No Way!
Must be able to successfully handle multiple tasks/projects
You don't say!
and have excellent technical writing skills (including requirements, specifications, status reports, flowcharts and project plans).
So in addition to all that development/admin they also want a business analysi, system architect and project manager? Sweet
Gail Shaw
Microsoft Certified Master: SQL Server, MVP, M.Sc (Comp Sci)
SQL In The Wild: Discussions on DB performance with occasional diversions into recoverability
January 20, 2011 at 7:29 am
Ferguson (1/20/2011)
Brandie Tarvin (1/20/2011)
There is a difference between a Jack of All Trades and a Specialist. A multi-talented Specialist is what a lot of people are seeing with this description.It's a good point. In thinking of it I am really looking for a specialist in large database physical administration, and a generalist in the rest.
Related question: In that specialty area, do you administration and physical tuning (not design) of a BI oriented database and of a transactional database as two separate specialties?
Design yes -- even in the programming arena I think the divide between BI and OLTP is getting wider.
But how about physical administration and tuning? Are you suggesting I once again have to pick? Or do most good DBA's do both?
Physical administration of VLDBs (Very Large Databases) is a specialty all in its own. It will usually be accompanied by generalist skills, or the ability to pick up generalist skills, in the rest of the database product you're looking for. Make sure to be specific about current and expected size and transactionality when looking for candidates. The skills for a multi-Gig database are NOT the skills for a multi-Terabyte database. They overlap, but the bigger one requires a whole additional set of techniques. The skills for 8AM-5PM, 100 transactions/minute, are again, not the skills for a 24X7X365, 5-9s uptime, 1000 transactions per second database.
The admin of OLAP(BI) and OTLP databases is different, but the skillsets overlap enough that an expert in one will probably be at least good enough in the other. I wouldn't worry too much about that. Tuning, on the other hand, is VERY different between the two. Tuning is tightly tied to architecture and design. The odds of getting someone who can physically administer both is pretty good, add in performance tuning in both, and you're looking at a much smaller pool of candidates. And they will be expensive.
I, for example, can administer VLDBs, and can architect/tune OLTP regardless of size, but I've dug into OLAP tuning just enough to know that I don't know enough about it to do anything useful. And I'm expensive (and not available).
- Gus "GSquared", RSVP, OODA, MAP, NMVP, FAQ, SAT, SQL, DNA, RNA, UOI, IOU, AM, PM, AD, BC, BCE, USA, UN, CF, ROFL, LOL, ETC
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January 20, 2011 at 12:26 pm
Ninja's_RGR'us (1/20/2011)
In all those instances, I did my due dilligence and figured out what the market is where I was going to contract... 75$/H is on the low range for consulting in my region. And I am talking about a high level I or low level II. High normal range is 125$/H.
I am seriously doing it wrong. I know the competitive rates in my market, and I'm at the upper end, but damn... I'm doing it wrong.
Anyone up there hiring for remote work, Ninja? 🙂
Never stop learning, even if it hurts. Ego bruises are practically mandatory as you learn unless you've never risked enough to make a mistake.
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January 20, 2011 at 12:38 pm
Ninja's_RGR'us (1/20/2011)
What was the payscale for that job?? :w00t::-P:hehe:
$90k-95k/year
- Gus "GSquared", RSVP, OODA, MAP, NMVP, FAQ, SAT, SQL, DNA, RNA, UOI, IOU, AM, PM, AD, BC, BCE, USA, UN, CF, ROFL, LOL, ETC
Property of The Thread
"Nobody knows the age of the human race, but everyone agrees it's old enough to know better." - Anon
January 20, 2011 at 12:45 pm
Ferguson (1/20/2011)
To the comments on words, inconsistencies in the descriptions -- got it. These things get written by committees, and clearly the result reflects it. There is a legal component to that however, that I need to work through -- the job description becomes a yardstick for H/R if there is ever a dispute.
This is not an uncommon thing, and it's also why most experienced people will avoid a task like this. Too easy to get thrown out on your ear if this is part of the 'requirements' for the position. It's a setup. Get someone great in, get your crap cleaned up, and then show, on paper, they can't "perform" the necessary duties, and chuck 'em. Like it or not unscrupulous people have made reading these things an art form.
So there's a bias to throw in a broad enough list that you never get that union-like reaction. But I do not see any reason why the full, offical job description has to be in the ad -- they can see that if they are interested once they can have a discussion with a human and place it in context.
Nope, what's written is written. Verbal has little bearing without tape recordings before a judge if necessary. What you write is important. Moreso since your legal team is directly involved.
Where I continue to resist however is the whole generalist idea. They must be out there.
Sure. I'm a generalist. I've worked on everything in SQL at least 2 or 3 times. I've done warehousing, I've done terrabyte level optimization, and I've made reports for the local auto shop. I've built E-Carts, worked in healthcare and financial institutes, and done government flatfile shippings and worked with their specs. However...
I have heard two threads in this -- one is "but when will I have time to do both" and "you cannot find someone who is able to do both". The first is in my mind not a valid argument -- it is about time management and priorities. If we legitimately run out of hours, we hire more, but understand this is an incremental position -- it is hard to justify (even to myself) that I need two until the almost infinite increase in resources at least shows up and gets busy.
You see it as infinite because you have noone in the position yet so anything is better than nothing. Your description, to those of us who have walked into that maelstrom of no previous expert senior, know that it's an overwhelming task to get cleaned up. The requirements for cleanup are too wide for any one person to handle in what is *USUALLY* considered a reasonable time frame by working reasonable hours. That you have a different opinion of the expected cleanup timespan is something you should state, thus being more attractive to people who understand what's most likely occurred.
But the "cannot find someone who is able"... Come on. There must be good people out there, bored and wasting their time and abilities and who really could?
Can, and can quickly. Difference here is direct and phenomenal. I have specific skills I'm an expert in, and I'm used for those by a few clients. One is firestomping. The oh crap it's gonna blow up come fix it NOW! type issues. I'm very quick to grasp a system, an architecture, and the issues from the vague things that business can actually describe to a technician dealing with a datatype conversion error (for example).
I'm not going to be quick tossing up a report in SSRS while building a cube to support it for the BI team while they get their specs together and need data research to figure out what they actually want included, meanwhile I'm trying to deal with the fact that Server BumbleBrother2 went down again at 2 AM because I haven't been able to track down why my memory keeps paging.
Nonono. You imply you want a specialist's speed with a generalist's knowledge. That's MCM land (and even then, I'm not sure, some things just take a lot of time). Now, having read your comments that you want a specific specialist for VLDB optimizations and the rest are 'fill in' work...
Optimizations is a lot of work and testing for very little obvious initial gain. Especially on databases that size. A mistake or a bad assumption can eat hours to reverse, even on test boxes. Exploration and extrapolation are nothing more then sitting there, thinking, and typing maybe 2-3 lines of code an hour. So, it looks real easy for someone to say 'Hey, you're not that busy, can you do x'.
Add enough x's, and you never actually do your job.
Finally Salary and a related question -- one or more comments seemed to take issue with salary before it was mentioned, then said "but you did not say you would pay enough". Does everyone just presume that a job posting is going to have inadequate pay?
To borrow someone else's phrase: When they're looking for a purple squirrel? Yes. They expect to pay a secretary's salary for someone to handle "That computer stuff".
By practice I never advertise salary, not even ranges. Our HR consultants advise the same.
Most don't, not in the written ads, anyway. It tends to attract every grub out there who doesn't understand they can't do the work if it's priced properly.
I have even some resistance on the first contact to discussing it, asI want to be able to judge each applicant's situation, experience, and the competitive nature of their situation before making an offer.
I have learned, over the years, that this comes up while I make the initial arrangements to interview, or it must be nailed to the walls in the first real interview (tech interview doesn't count, it's a double check to make sure you're worth interviewing). I work for money. Not glory. Not pride. Not because I care if your company succeeds (other than not paying my check anymore). I work for money. You're checking me out, I return the favor. Play your cards too close to the chest and I stop caring.
To me that's just normal practice -- but it appears to be a presumption here (at least by some) that with zero hints on salary that it was already going to under-pay. Why is that?
As Gail mentioned, experience. Anyone who's not discussing the salary up front is trying to hide it till the end... and that surprise is usually because they hope to get someone to have invested enough time to be stuck on their offer. I'm not wasting 4-8 hours in interviews and discussions and preparations for some job that's going to lowball just to see what they can find. Wastes my time. Most of them, with what appears to be an unreasonable expectation don't know what to pay either, so they're going to offer some measely college kid rate.
To me the data management group is the core of everything we do. Hiring mediocre people there is like buying a Viper car, but asking that they put a Prius engine in it.
I wish more people thought like you... I really do. 😀
Never stop learning, even if it hurts. Ego bruises are practically mandatory as you learn unless you've never risked enough to make a mistake.
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January 20, 2011 at 12:54 pm
Craig Farrell (1/20/2011)
Optimizations is a lot of work and testing for very little obvious initial gain. Especially on databases that size. A mistake or a bad assumption can eat hours to reverse, even on test boxes. Exploration and extrapolation are nothing more then sitting there, thinking, and typing maybe 2-3 lines of code an hour.
And it can easily be a full time job for one person. I know. I've done it. I was solely responsible for the monitoring and tuning of a TB sized database until 2 years ago. I could easily spend 45+ hours a week JUST on tuning, monitoring, reporting and getting the bloody dev team to stop killing performance faster than I could fix it.
Research into new trends, investigating best practices, reading blogs, books, whitepapers and articles, that I did in the evenings because I believed it of value to my career.
Gail Shaw
Microsoft Certified Master: SQL Server, MVP, M.Sc (Comp Sci)
SQL In The Wild: Discussions on DB performance with occasional diversions into recoverability
January 20, 2011 at 3:30 pm
Ferguson,
Just a note. I know it looks like I'm abusing you and/or your intentions. I'm really not trying to flog this. I'm hoping that you're not the only one who's browsing/reviewing this thread and will get more information from it as well, which is why I'm being so detailed, even when you explain certain things.
This is a common problem amongst businesses looking for upper end database technicians (administrators, devs, BI, whatever). Everyone goes after the kitchen sink. It's not because they need it day to day, but because they'd like it handy for the once in a blue moon they actually need to do those tasks. The problem is the presentation where there are shops that expect said generalist to perform all these tasks at once.
The issue is you can't tell from the job listing which one any listing is, and thus, we skip all of them. No proper job hunter is spending less than half a day, usually, preparing for a specific opportunity. Not at the level you're looking for, anyway. That means you get selective.
You tailor the resume for the necessary skillsets so you don't drown them in crap. You research the company (if they're exposed, that can be problematic with consulting firms) to find out what they do and what you feel you're expected to know. You tailor a cover letter. You refresh yourself on whatever tasks are listed you haven't worked with in a while. IE: How often do you REALLY install active/active clustering in a merge replication environment? Maybe once a year?
This is per job, at least until you've got about a dozen different resumes built and are used to how to do it, which can become a skillset all its own.
So, again, I apologize if it looks like I'm attacking you specifically, or ranting at you. That is not the case. I'm trying to be analytic about the item in general when for once everyone can see the actual feedback from the intended employer. That's a rare thing. Usually you have to go through the entire interview process at which point you usually can't find the original posting anymore.
That, and I'm hoping it helps, too. 🙂
Never stop learning, even if it hurts. Ego bruises are practically mandatory as you learn unless you've never risked enough to make a mistake.
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January 20, 2011 at 5:52 pm
Maybe this can give you "our" perspective on money.
"Money isn't everything, but it ranks right up there with Oxygen",
Zig Ziglar.
From my perspective when I read a consulting offer, I KNOW for a fact, without any question that I can or cannot perform the tasks required by the job. So assuming I can do the job correctly and that I feel it can be done in 40 hours / week MAX, money becomes the 2nd "biggest" issue.
As Craig already pointed out, it can easily take half a day just to get to the point where you can send your resume and HOPE to get the interview (not that easy with a buzzword bouncer that filters the resume).
Now assuming a fairly large enterprise, the interview will usually take 3-5 steps which include a few interviews and background check and health clearance.
So all in all, any job you go after WILL take 2 full days of my time that I won't be paid for. This also means that I can't go after more than 2-3 jobs per week if I don't want to go insane with the process.
So with that in mind, the job description becomes of the utmost importance. I won't beat a deadhorse since you already understood that part.
Here's the golden nugget. Last year I was doing a .Net order system. I was (unofficially, and yet really) on call 24/7/365... and I did DO work 24 / 7 at a pace of 60 to 100 hours / week (including commute).
The pay was decent but I still hated life.
Now I'm doing a challenging BI project with SSRS.
I'm on site from 7H to 14H.
I get in or out whenever I want without reporting to anyone.
I NEVER waste time in traffic (hence the "weird" hours)
I NEVER bring home work.
I NEVER work week-ends.
I NEVER have a boss breathing down my neck because the server is down.
I NEVER work holidays.
I can take 2-4 weeks vacations whenever I want to (within reason in the projects I'm assigned of course)
I LOVE working with every single individuals in that company whereas I hated a few key players at the previous one (this is also a majog concern but it's a bit harder to detect in the interview or a 5 minutes meeting with them. This is something I evaluate later on in the process unless I see major red flags right up front)
The only people I report to are the 2-3 finals users for which the reports are for. The interaction basically stops at "yes I'm done "or "I still need a couple days / weeks to finish" and "no your specs are not clear, here are my questions".
Even if the net pay at then end of the year is easily 500$ less per week, I don't give a rats a$$ and I'll NEVER go back to the other client unless I get matching conditions.
Moreover I still earn enough $ to do anything I want to do and not worry about bills. Just for kicks I was able to bring my whole family (party of 10) to see Cirque du Soleil in row 3 dead center, 15 feet from the scene.
So I think this is where your initial description hurts you the most. People who have money want TIME to enjoy it. They want freedom of mind to enjoy it.
I think that if you were to post 2 different jobs at the same time you'd show that you know what you want and what you are doing and most importantly that you have a sane work - life harmony. None of us are stupid enough to think that we'd never work nights or week-ends for upgrades or last minute problems, but we're even less stupid to get trapped again in a job that will suck the life out of us.
One more hint besides SQL chapters. Since I hate interviews and selling myself over and over again, I went to work for an agency that finds me contracts that meet my expectations. I now get 6+ months contracts before I get in the door and ALL my conditions are agreed upon before I start any work (within some negociations of course, but I only get in if all parties are happy with the deal).
Here's how it helps you. You could consider getting consultants to come in to do smaller urgent projets. During that 1-2 weeks period you get to know each other and see if it's a fit. When you find someone you like you can always offer a perm job with a bounty for the agency to let him go (there will be a non compete agreement between the agency and consultant, but I've seen agencies let good workers go with pleasure and good wishes).
I think that once everything is accounted for, it might even be cheaper to do it that way and the projects will get done while you are still looking for someone. You will find solid level II-III workers there. The kind of people who don't waste time on Monster and Dice to buy their next meal. Then you just need to find one who wishes a more stable life and you're good to go.
Hope this helps...
January 20, 2011 at 6:29 pm
GilaMonster (1/20/2011)
Ferguson (1/20/2011)
Where I continue to resist however is the whole generalist idea. They must be out there.Sure they are. However you've indicated you want hotshots. Top skills. You're not going to get "Top skills" and "All areas of SQL" in one person (at least not one you can afford). Hotshots specialise. You can't expect someone to be a hotshot in the entire SQL product. It's too big. If you want someone who's a hotshot in one area and generalist in others, you need to indicate that. Otherwise you're scaring off the really hotshot admins who know a bit of dev but aren't experts and you're going to attract the mediocre type who think they're experts in everything.
To me that's just normal practice -- but it appears to be a presumption here (at least by some) that with zero hints on salary that it was already going to under-pay. Why is that?
Experience. 🙁
I absolutely agree with all of that... especially the "experience" answer. 🙂
--Jeff Moden
Change is inevitable... Change for the better is not.
January 21, 2011 at 4:45 am
Hey, Craig, even us non-employer types are learning a lot from this discourse. I've learned a lot about job descriptions just by reading your responses (and Gail's).
Thanks.
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