January 19, 2011 at 2:52 pm
Assuming you can find a mixture of Gail, Jeff, Randal and Ben Gan who can work 100 hours / week.
How much is this position going to cost him?
January 19, 2011 at 3:13 pm
Ninja's_RGR'us (1/19/2011)
Assuming you can find a mixture of Gail, Jeff, Randal and Ben Gan who can work 100 hours / week.How much is this position going to cost him?
I know consultants at that level who charge $250/hour... to the consulting firms. What they charge to carry their own insurance under their own names I have no idea. Call Brent Ozar and ask him what two days of database analysis would cost. 😉
Never stop learning, even if it hurts. Ego bruises are practically mandatory as you learn unless you've never risked enough to make a mistake.
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January 19, 2011 at 5:59 pm
Craig, thanks.
A couple of short responses:
It is senior, not sure where you saw it was not, I did not post the actual position description in full. Should have. it is in fact only -- we have no real DBA in house now at all. So with respect to change control, etc... .they get to create some of that. We are not SOX, we have little.
Your points on DB2 are well founded. I think I may just lose that, no one seems to have it anyway.
I think all of you are over-blowing the project management part, but that all of you are says I need to rethink the wording. basically i want people who are organized enough not to need a babysitter.
But your "4 people" part -- i will always hire one or two really good, talented people and pay them well in favor of 3-4 mediocre ones. I presume I would pay at least $100k for this, maybe more.
Am I using the wrong term for someone like that? Is Senior DBA not right? is that "Database Architect"? But I definitely want someone who will also do the physical administration.
I do not mean to sound defensive -- I came for advice, I got advice -- if you agreed with me it would not be helpful.
Thank you again, more always welcomed.
January 19, 2011 at 9:24 pm
Ferguson (1/19/2011)
Craig, thanks.It is senior, not sure where you saw it was not, I did not post the actual position description in full. Should have. it is in fact only -- we have no real DBA in house now at all. So with respect to change control, etc... .they get to create some of that. We are not SOX, we have little.
Since it wasn't part of the description, you assume you're not going to be the Senior. Regarding the being involved in helping create the change control, I'd certainly list that. You'll actually get stronger responses with them knowing they're going to be helping to create it.
Your points on DB2 are well founded. I think I may just lose that, no one seems to have it anyway.
Yeah, sorry about that.
I think all of you are over-blowing the project management part, but that all of you are says I need to rethink the wording. basically i want people who are organized enough not to need a babysitter.
Ah, that's VERY different than a Project Manager. Understand that a Project Manager in many locations is literally that. Someone trained in keeping a project's paperwork organized, teamwork organized, and dealing with external roadblocks. They also handle the ghant chart in MS Project and the like. There's actual certifications for a position titled "Project Manager". That term means something VERY different to us.
Perhaps phrase it as "Organized person who can keep track of own tasks and goals, able to discuss and show status to management on request." This implies a personal organizational requirement, and not a team managing one.
But your "4 people" part -- i will always hire one or two really good, talented people and pay them well in favor of 3-4 mediocre ones. I presume I would pay at least $100k for this, maybe more.
Depends on region. I honestly can't say what salaries are like in Chicago. I know I expect a 50% boost in salary going from AZ to NY (born 'n raised there, dispite my earlier comments, I visit family via job on occassion). I don't accept merely 100k here in AZ, especially salary. I'd guess you're looking at 120-130k for a highly competent individual. Remember, I'm pricing myself as a widely versed Level II with leadership and mentoring experience. I'm not a Level III.
Am I using the wrong term for someone like that? Is Senior DBA not right? is that "Database Architect"? But I definitely want someone who will also do the physical administration.
No, Senior DBA is correct. Adding on data architect is a common addition, especially for the senior DBA. However, it's a time eater, especially early in the cycle when you haven't had a good senior on board for a while and you need to educate (or re-educate) your development staff.
I do not mean to sound defensive -- I came for advice, I got advice -- if you agreed with me it would not be helpful.
Thank you again, more always welcomed.
Defensive is fine. I came off pretty abrupt there, even though I tried to soften it. It's a lot to try to put down and I was pressed for time. My critique is my personal opinions of what your job requirements read as to me. Please note, personal opinion. You didn't contradict all of the different aspects of the work that's expected to be required there. That concerns me.
You'll definately want to split these duties up. That is a laundry list of things to correct that you'll either need to express in the job posting that it's something to be dealt with over the next few years, or that they'll be *directing* more staff towards the goals of achieving these items, and need to have the skillset to mentor and direct them.
That's a lot of work. It's like expecting a single handyman to renovate the entire house. How quick do you want it? Show that you have realistic goals regarding time to the people with skillsets of at least competence levels in all the aspects, and you'll also get more hits.
But first thing's first. If you want to see any resumes other than the old mainframer looking to upgrade, as you agreed, DB2's gotta go.
Never stop learning, even if it hurts. Ego bruises are practically mandatory as you learn unless you've never risked enough to make a mistake.
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January 19, 2011 at 10:43 pm
This is going to sound really mean and negative but I'm actually trying to point out a major flaw which may actually be scaring qualified candidates away...
If Remi did post the actual link to job description, I can certainly see why 1) no one wants the job and 2) why no one is qualified for the job. Whether you intended it or not, that job description doesn't describe a even a very sought after "hybrid" DBA... rather it describes a one man show to act as the QA for development, design business analyst, ETL specialist, BI admin, report writer, T-SQL Developer, System DBA, technical writer, Disaster Recovery expert, project manager, data modeler, data analyst, schedular, job estimator, and a customer liaison not to mention having a developer as an immediate supervisor which also means that standards will fall by the wayside as soon as (s)he feels the pinch of a poorly planned schedule.
Whew! Catch my drift here?
Although there are some folks that are good at many of those, they may not have any experience in many or most of the others. They're probably a bit overwhelmed by the "requirements rhetoric" in the job description. The fact that you don't mention a reasonable salary range also makes it sound like you want a low-ball wage slave and it also sounds (as I previously said) like you want a one man show who will never get to go home never mind take those 3 weeks of vacation that you're so proud to offer.
There are also some discrepancies in the job description. For example...
• 4+ years of database experience installing, configuring, tuning & monitoring SQL Server 2005
• 3+ years of experience with Microsoft SQL Server 2005 and T-SQL development
• 3+ years of experience writing stored procedures
You just can't have 4 years experience with SS 2005 on the one line (especially for "tuning") and only 3 years experience with SS 2005 on the other line and probably not only 3 years experience writing stored procedures. This makes it sound like the folks writing the job description doesn't have a clue but is still looking for the proverbial "purple squirrel".
Then people look back at how well you say the company is doing and they wonder, "Why is it that just one person has to do all of that other than maybe the company really isn't doing as well as they say?" and that pretty much cinches their decision to move on to the next job offering they can find.
The only things you left out was "5 years experience with C#, Java is required" otherwise it would be like all the other "purple squirrel" job descriptions that want everything for next to nothing.
Like I said... not trying to be mean on any of this. I'm just trying to explain why qualified people aren't beating your door down trying to land that job. Of course, that just my opinion. 😉
--Jeff Moden
Change is inevitable... Change for the better is not.
January 19, 2011 at 11:22 pm
Ferguson (1/19/2011)
Wow, flurry of info, thanks.First, the job descriptions posted were NOT for my job. I was not trying to turn this into a "anyone want a job", i was really looking for insight, and I have received a lot.
I was going to point to our Dice posting, but I do not see it. My guess is it expired, we have a posting out there for an infrastructure manager, but (yikes) it shows us in Hillside not Oak Brook, so someone is not keeping updated right.
Anyway... do I gather it is OK to post one here?
After seeing the other one dissected, I should run and hide perhaps, but you don't learn if you do not take a shot so here goes, for brevity the intro and job description part not the boilerplate (and apologies for the format, did not take time to pretty up).
[font="Arial Narrow"]Responsible for all physical and some logical administration of Microsoft SQL Server databases, this position will also be a backup DBA for i5/OS DB2/UDB on the IBM System i (AS/400). Both environments involve multi-terabyte databases, and this highly technical position will manage their performance and availability while also coordinating projects with development groups as well as packaged software vendors, advising on schema design for both OLTP and OLAP systems. Administer database object enhancements using internal change control procedures. The chosen candidate must be a team player, be a self-starter and possess an eagerness to learn and adapt in a diverse environment. other analysts and programmers. This position requires demonstrated analytical skills, and excellent verbal and written communications in English.
1.Install, configure and administer database software in production and development environments.
2.Plan for and when needed execute high availability and disaster recovery configurations and procedures.
3.Assume primary responsibility for physical monitoring, performance tuning, and work with the development groups to improve logical tuning. Prepare capacity plans for future growth and manage to budget and workload.
4.Document database system configurations.
5.Work with project teams to analyze user needs and develop comprehensive project plans.
6.In conjunction with the development groups, model data, design logical and physical databases, review database design changes and assess impact of changes.
7.Establish and administer database security.
8.Perform validity and integrity checks, and work with developers to ensure data quality and integrity throughout the enterprise.
9.Design, implement and test database backup and recovery procedures.
10.Design, code, test, implement, document and maintain database applications.
11.Evaluate, recommend, install and configure packaged application software that will enhance the database environments.
12.Perform project management duties for small to large database projects.
13.Transfer knowledge to other analysts and programmers to promote professional growth within the department.
14.Work with the technical experts within vendor organizations to resolve problems as well as propose new, or changes to existing, database systems.
15.Develop and implement database change management procedures consistent with overall development and production needs.
16.Configure ETL and database linkages between heterogeneous database environments.
[/font]
Comments, in retrospect -- the iSeries DB2 aspect is not a deal killer, though we would like someone flexible enough to learn that. We would not need them to know DB2 as they come into the door.
The bigger issue -- which again in retrospect is not reflected well here -- is that we are going to have transactional databases in the 1-2 TB range, and BI related ones in the several TB range, with a mixture of heavy duty transaction and ad hoc workloads.
Are we dreaming to find this in one body?
To other comments -- no, I wasn't planing to pay $75k. And no I wasn't planning to pay $250k either.
And fundamentally we need someone who understands what they do. So many DBA's know what to do, but not why. And so they do not know whether what they are doing really applies -- just it said "this is best practice". To handle our data volume and business we need to be creative at times, and I want someone who can keep up with creative developers, and have at least sometimes will say "Microsoft says do X, but in this case I think Y is better and here is why".
I cannot tell you the number of times I have butted heads with a DBA that went like "you need to do X". I do not want to do X, I need an alternative. "But you need to do X". Why? "Because it is the best practice". But here is the problem I am trying to solve, and X does not solve it -- give me an alternative. "You need to do X". Lather, rinse, repeat.
Fundamentally I need someone who will tell me why I need to do X, help me find an alternative if X does not work based on science and research and facts, and generally speaking knows what they are talking about, not just have a good memory for Microsoft blog postings and white papers (though having that is nice also).
FWIW. And really -- thanks for all this feedback.
PS. If I seem a bit disconnected from the search, the position does not report directly to me, so the hiring manager and the recruiting firm hopefully already know where the job is posted. I'm just seeking out some insight given how long it has taken.
Heh... that's what I get for not reading the rest of the posts on the thread. That's a much better job description but I agree with the other's assessments concerning project management and the like including some of the comments about a single point in the job description possibly being a full time job all by themselves.
Since the commented post above, you've explained many of the things you want done and why. I particullarly liked the X vs Y explanation and the fact that you'd rather hire 1 or 2 Ninja's instead of 3 or 4 mediocre folks. You also posted what you'd expect to pay for such Ninja's.
After you clean up or just remove some of the points (point 5, for example) that others have mentioned, you might want to add some of the comments (almost verbatim because they sound so "human") you've made on this thread because they sound like good, honest expectations that I believe, along with what you expect to pay, will actually lure in some of the "good ones".
As has been said by the others, so many people want the world for peanuts and expect large amounts of overtime. The good ones have already "been there and done that" and know that such expectations just aren't necessary.
You sound like a pretty decent "boss" with reasonable expectations and a good guiding hand. It's a shame that I like the Detroit area and my current job so much or I might have asked for an interview. The recommendation to dig into the 2 local PASS chapters would probably do you well in your search especially if your company bought the pizza, coke, and salad for a meeting or two of theirs.
--Jeff Moden
Change is inevitable... Change for the better is not.
January 20, 2011 at 3:41 am
Ferguson (1/19/2011)
I think all of you are over-blowing the project management part, but that all of you are says I need to rethink the wording. basically i want people who are organized enough not to need a babysitter.
That's not what your ad says. Your ad says you want a full blown project manager - gantt chart, timelines, action lists the works. "develop comprehensive project plans", "Perform project management duties" Both of those imply significant amounts of full-blown project management work, not that you want an organised person.
But your "4 people" part -- i will always hire one or two really good, talented people and pay them well in favor of 3-4 mediocre ones. I presume I would pay at least $100k for this, maybe more.
Again, that's not what the ad says. It says that you're looking for 1 person who can do all of that. I can do points 3, 4, 6, 8, 10, 13, 14, 15, 16 but I'd never consider applying for that job because of all the others and because it looks to me like an 80 hours per week + weekends job, from just the requirements.
I suggest you split it into 2 adverts, take out all the business analysis and project management stuff (because it's saying something you didn't intend), split it roughly down the dev/admin line.
Something like (roughly)
Senior SQL Server Administrator
Install, configure and administer database software in production and development environments.
Plan for and when needed execute high availability and disaster recovery configurations and procedures.
Implement performance monitoring and assist with performance tuning. Prepare capacity plans for future growth and manage to budget and workload.
In conjunction with the development groups review database design changes and assess impact of changes.
Establish and administer database security.
Design, implement and test database backup and recovery procedures.
Evaluate, recommend, install and configure packaged application software that will enhance the database environments.
Transfer knowledge to other analysts and programmers to promote professional growth within the department.
Work with the technical experts within vendor organizations to resolve problems as well as propose new, or changes to existing, database systems.
Assist and advise on the implementation of database change management procedures consistent with overall development and production needs.
SQL Server database developer/database architect
Perform performance tuning and work with the development groups to improve logical tuning.
In conjunction with the development groups, model data, design logical and physical databases and review database design changes
Perform validity and integrity checks, and work with developers to ensure data quality and integrity throughout the enterprise.
Design, code, test, implement, document and maintain database applications.
Evaluate, recommend, install and configure packaged application software that will enhance the database environments.
Transfer knowledge to other analysts and programmers to promote professional growth within the department.
Work with the technical experts within vendor organizations to resolve problems as well as propose new, or changes to existing, database systems.
Configure ETL and database linkages between heterogeneous database environments.
Develop and assist with implementation of database change management procedures consistent with overall development and production needs.
Research and investigate database best practices with a view to improving overall usage of SQL Server
Now, were I looking for a job in Chicago, I'd certainly apply for the second.
Gail Shaw
Microsoft Certified Master: SQL Server, MVP, M.Sc (Comp Sci)
SQL In The Wild: Discussions on DB performance with occasional diversions into recoverability
January 20, 2011 at 5:20 am
Something to also consider, dividing the job description into "requirements" and "nice to haves".
Think about it this way. What do you absolutely, positively need your Senior DBA to do? What is the majority of the job duties?
It may behoove you to list only the stuff the DBA will be doing with 80%-90% of his time, then to mention the other 20%-10% during the interview process. Putting all the fluff work in the job description is a sure way to make sure nobody applies for the job because they think they have to spend equal time on all those duties. And I know it's not fluff to you, but if a DBA is only spending an hour a week (if that) on something, does it really need to be in the initial job description?
I'm not saying hide the info. You definitely want to discuss this stuff after the candidates get their foot in the door. But if you're willing to train on, or give the candidates time to learn, extra duties that only consume a small bit of their time, then wait to discuss that until later. Don't list it in the description and make everything think they absolutely have to have that skill or they won't be considered.
January 20, 2011 at 5:56 am
Wow I'm so glad I found the "wrong" posting for this job. This thread should be called The Thread II.
Amazing feedback from everybody.
Any to pin it in the forum as a goto refference for job posters / hunters?
January 20, 2011 at 5:57 am
Thanks again. Some comments.
First, I should have posted the job description earlier in the thread. Some forums are very picky about such, was trying to be careful. But having some unrelated job description picked up and posted has caused confusion. Thanks for filtering through that.
To the comments on words, inconsistencies in the descriptions -- got it. These things get written by committees, and clearly the result reflects it. There is a legal component to that however, that I need to work through -- the job description becomes a yardstick for H/R if there is ever a dispute. So there's a bias to throw in a broad enough list that you never get that union-like reaction. But I do not see any reason why the full, offical job description has to be in the ad -- they can see that if they are interested once they can have a discussion with a human and place it in context.
I'm sold on the DB2 link. At worst we will make that a "opportunity" but I have other AS/400 resources who can be trained in that area instead. We do a lot of cross database work, but you are right. I've been that route with Cobol programmers being offered the "opportunity" to learn windows systems -- they think of it as punishment. There is a big divide between cultures that most do not care to cross.
Project management -- noted. Words have strength. Will adjust.
Where I continue to resist however is the whole generalist idea. They must be out there.
I have heard two threads in this -- one is "but when will I have time to do both" and "you cannot find someone who is able to do both". The first is in my mind not a valid argument -- it is about time management and priorities. If we legitimately run out of hours, we hire more, but understand this is an incremental position -- it is hard to justify (even to myself) that I need two until the almost infinite increase in resources at least shows up and gets busy.
But the "cannot find someone who is able"... Come on. There must be good people out there, bored and wasting their time and abilities and who really could?
Oh -- groups -- I found two local PASS chapters, going to pursue that. Great idea.
Finally Salary and a related question -- one or more comments seemed to take issue with salary before it was mentioned, then said "but you did not say you would pay enough". Does everyone just presume that a job posting is going to have inadequate pay?
By practice I never advertise salary, not even ranges. Our HR consultants advise the same. I have even some resistance on the first contact to discussing it, asI want to be able to judge each applicant's situation, experience, and the competitive nature of their situation before making an offer. I have adjusted expected offerings as much as about 40% at times upward to get someone who was an unexpectedly strong candidate (and in that case lost it to someone paying 100% more!), and downward substantially (probably never more than 20%) of budget because someone with real potential and apparently good employee came in but was weak and who was previously making way below the range.
To me that's just normal practice -- but it appears to be a presumption here (at least by some) that with zero hints on salary that it was already going to under-pay. Why is that?
To me the data management group is the core of everything we do. Hiring mediocre people there is like buying a Viper car, but asking that they put a Prius engine in it.
January 20, 2011 at 6:07 am
There are generalists out there. I'm one of them. I work at a One-Stop-Shop where I have to do a little bit of everything. I think the issue is that the job description comes across as more "We want a superstar in all these pieces" as opposed to a generalist type description.
There is a difference between a Jack of All Trades and a Specialist. A multi-talented Specialist is what a lot of people are seeing with this description.
This is where you probably want to be more picky with the wording in the description. Maybe you want to specifically state that this person will be the only DBA in the shop, but that might chase people away too. Or maybe rephrase so it says you're for a DBA who "has some knowledge of" or "worked with" X, Y, Z. That's a lot different from saying "you must" and loosens the restrictions somewhat.
When you reach out to the users groups, mention you're looking for a generalist. They need to know that or you'll get the wrong people applying for the position.
January 20, 2011 at 6:13 am
Brandie Tarvin (1/20/2011)
There is a difference between a Jack of All Trades and a Specialist. A multi-talented Specialist is what a lot of people are seeing with this description.
It's a good point. In thinking of it I am really looking for a specialist in large database physical administration, and a generalist in the rest.
Related question: In that specialty area, do you administration and physical tuning (not design) of a BI oriented database and of a transactional database as two separate specialties?
Design yes -- even in the programming arena I think the divide between BI and OLTP is getting wider.
But how about physical administration and tuning? Are you suggesting I once again have to pick? Or do most good DBA's do both?
January 20, 2011 at 6:16 am
I can give a hint from my own "limited" experience. I am a consultant and yet I've only interviewed 5-6 times in my life for contracts (most of them long terms).
In all those instances, I did my due dilligence and figured out what the market is where I was going to contract... 75$/H is on the low range for consulting in my region. And I am talking about a high level I or low level II. High normal range is 125$/H.
I consider myself a solid level II in many areas. Even areas that go beyond normal sql tasks.
Just to give a ballpark of my experience, I've taken on an successfully completed projects in all those requirements of yours :
3,4,6,7,8,10,11,13,14,15,16
So that makes me a competent level I in all those. And many of them level II. I'd go with level III on solving problem with dev 1 on 1, transfering knowledge and perf tuning on smaller dbs (100 GB+).
So I go in the interview, wow them (they tell me). And then they want to pay 60K / year instead of 150K...
They want to pay weekly salary instead of per hour... that's where the fear for 80 hours / weeks strikes.
I've even been offered 21$ / hour (rural city... but still).
January 20, 2011 at 6:23 am
I've played with your job description a bit, removing what I see as redundant or unclear terminology. I'm sure everyone will offer their insights as to whether this description is any better than the last, but here's something that I would notice:
Job Description
The perfect candidate will have some experience with:1. Installing, configuring and administering database software.
2. Database maintenance, including backups, recoveries, and integrity checking.
3. Administering database security.
4. T-SQL code design and implementation.
5. Monitoring, performance tuning, and capacity planning for VLDBs.
6. Creating, and implementing, high availability and disaster recovery configurations.
7. Establishing performance tuning guidelines.
8. Modeling and designing databases.
9. SDLC processes.
10. ETL processes between heterogeneous database environments
11. Evaluating, recommending, installing, and configuring third party applications.
12. Working with other teams, and outside vendors, to improve database performance and maintain production applications.
This, I believe, takes every point you listed in 1-15, combines a few, reorders to meet most important to least important, and rephrases a few things to sound less SuperDBAish.
Everyone please feel free to tell me I'm full of it. @=)
January 20, 2011 at 6:25 am
Ferguson (1/20/2011)
Brandie Tarvin (1/20/2011)
There is a difference between a Jack of All Trades and a Specialist. A multi-talented Specialist is what a lot of people are seeing with this description.It's a good point. In thinking of it I am really looking for a specialist in large database physical administration, and a generalist in the rest.
Related question: In that specialty area, do you administration and physical tuning (not design) of a BI oriented database and of a transactional database as two separate specialties?
Design yes -- even in the programming arena I think the divide between BI and OLTP is getting wider.
But how about physical administration and tuning? Are you suggesting I once again have to pick? Or do most good DBA's do both?
There is another option. Get a superstar and then hire out consultant to patch is "holes".
I know I could quickly learn how to tune 1 tb dbs (I already work with tables with 5 gb of data so I don't think there's a huge gap to cover to move to 50 GB tables).
However if you ask me to install and tune a SAN, I'm completely incapable of doing so. Yet I know the guy to call to make it happen. And I can work with him to meet the requirements for the job.
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