November 2, 2011 at 3:58 am
Evil Kraig F (11/1/2011)
InDeeDBA (11/1/2011)
DBA has become a very wide ranging job title, and I think that's where the problem lies.+1 I couldn't agree more. I'm losing the fight to make DBA mean what it says, but I'll be at that war for a while yet.
I guess that if you are fighting that one you've decided what tha A in DBA stands for? Depending what you want DBA to mean, you and I might be on the opposite sides of that fight.
Part of the reason it's a wide ranging job title is that the A can stand for Administrator, Architect, Assistant, or a wide range of other things.
I've been lucky - never had a job title that include the TLA "DBA", nor employed anyone with such a job title, so never had to worry about what the A stood for. Having "DB" in the job title seems to me to indicate an excessive narrowness of scope and dangerous over-specialisation.
Tom
November 2, 2011 at 4:18 am
sjimmo (11/1/2011)
You ALL failed. 😉I have gone back and read this entire thread. At times I fond it to be humerous. Not one has mentioned the templates that are available through the SSMS to do a db restoral. But then, those who actually started the thread a year ago never defined what their idea of a Sr DBA is either.
There were so many threads that I could have cut and pasted to make numerous points, but the one who sumed it up (forgive me, I am horrendous with names) said something to the effect that a Sr DBA knows why something has to be done and essentially how. Personally, I would tell one of my Jr DBA's to go restore a DB or to install SS. But, I may not have him do some complex tuning but to assist in order to further their education/capabilities.
I also see myself in some of this - ie, being better at scripts then GUI but then it took a long time to switch from DOS because Windows wasn't going to last:hehe:
Until I see industry descriptions of each and every job position for a DBA, who are we to criticize? All we can do is identify someone for our immediate needs and slap a label on it as our company sees it.
Would you expect your junior DBA to know about disk partition alignment, NTFS cluster size, RAID types, TempDB - placement and number of datafiles, NUMA, instant file initialisation, AWE, locking pages in memory, 32/64 bit variations, etc. etc. and all the other things to consider when installing SQL Server? I might give a Jnr DBA a work instruction document to follow, but wouldn't just say 'go and install SQL Server on that tin'...
November 2, 2011 at 5:29 am
adb
Would you expect your junior DBA to know about disk partition alignment, NTFS cluster size, RAID types,
TempDB - placement and number of datafiles, NUMA, instant file initialisation, AWE, locking pages in memory, 32/64 bit variations, etc. etc. and all the other things to consider when installing SQL Server? I might give a Jnr DBA a work instruction document to follow,
but wouldn't just say 'go and install SQL Server on that tin'
Maybe not in the beginning, but I would expect them to be learning in order to progress. There is also documentation that tells them how to build a server. The why's come as they are doing it. Would I have a person who is on the job one day doing these things? No, but they would be learning from the ground up starting day one.
Face it, there are those out there who claim to be DBA's who have no idea about any of the things that you mentioned, and are comfortable writing code and making sure that backup's are done. Then there are those who really want to learn the inner workings and to be able to know that AWE doesn't get turned on with 64 bit, and why.
I watched a company make a person a Sr SS DBA who's total experience was that they knew how to do backusps to a 10GB Oracle database. Unfortunately he lacks initiative and drive to advance much beyond that. But I have a developer who doesn't take a word I say as gospel, and goes to find out the why's. Yes, I just suggested that he go for an opening we have as a DBA.
I think that the days of a DBA knowing about networking, OS', packets, NTFS cluster sizes, etc are falling to the wayside.
Steve Jimmo
Sr DBA
“If we ever forget that we are One Nation Under God, then we will be a Nation gone under." - Ronald Reagan
November 2, 2011 at 5:48 am
sjimmo (11/2/2011)
adb
Would you expect your junior DBA to know about disk partition alignment, NTFS cluster size, RAID types,
TempDB - placement and number of datafiles, NUMA, instant file initialisation, AWE, locking pages in memory, 32/64 bit variations, etc. etc. and all the other things to consider when installing SQL Server? I might give a Jnr DBA a work instruction document to follow,
but wouldn't just say 'go and install SQL Server on that tin'
Maybe not in the beginning, but I would expect them to be learning in order to progress. There is also documentation that tells them how to build a server. The why's come as they are doing it. Would I have a person who is on the job one day doing these things? No, but they would be learning from the ground up starting day one.
Face it, there are those out there who claim to be DBA's who have no idea about any of the things that you mentioned, and are comfortable writing code and making sure that backup's are done. Then there are those who really want to learn the inner workings and to be able to know that AWE doesn't get turned on with 64 bit, and why.
I watched a company make a person a Sr SS DBA who's total experience was that they knew how to do backusps to a 10GB Oracle database. Unfortunately he lacks initiative and drive to advance much beyond that. But I have a developer who doesn't take a word I say as gospel, and goes to find out the why's. Yes, I just suggested that he go for an opening we have as a DBA.
I think that the days of a DBA knowing about networking, OS', packets, NTFS cluster sizes, etc are falling to the wayside.
Do you not think that the 'senior' DBA should be at least 'aware' of such things? Or at least MS bp's. After all partition alignment, raid config, data and log file placement all have a baring on performance and isnt that the one thing in this thread which is generically accepted as a 'senior' requirement?
We have 2 a/p clusters where i work, under ss2k5-64. We are upgrading to ss2k8 under ws2k8 and block size, partition alignment, offset, etc etc all figure heavily in our planning. After all, arent we the DBA's? Arent we meant to know about and specify this stuff? If not us, who?
Stop being so elitist.
Adam Zacks-------------------------------------------Be Nice, Or Leave
November 2, 2011 at 6:16 am
Adam
Stop being so elitist
Didn't realize that I am being elitist.
Yes, I am a Sr DBA - why? Because my company says so. What makes me one, act of a VP. How long am I one - as long as I work here I guess oruntil they change my title.
My opinion - there is too much that is constantly changing, and am always reading/classes/SQL Sat's, etc. Maybe I was at one time, maybe even today. But am/will I be one by tomorrow's standards?
My point is that there are no industry defined standards. Where do I get this idea? Reading the very diverse listings of what each company decides a DBA is. Reading this thread shows the same thing. Years of experience and working with those who are learning, including me.
Steve Jimmo
Sr DBA
“If we ever forget that we are One Nation Under God, then we will be a Nation gone under." - Ronald Reagan
November 2, 2011 at 6:29 am
sjimmo (11/2/2011)
Adam
Stop being so elitist
Didn't realize that I am being elitist.
Yes, I am a Sr DBA - why? Because my company says so. What makes me one, act of a VP. How long am I one - as long as I work here I guess oruntil they change my title.
My opinion - there is too much that is constantly changing, and am always reading/classes/SQL Sat's, etc. Maybe I was at one time, maybe even today. But am/will I be one by tomorrow's standards?
My point is that there are no industry defined standards. Where do I get this idea? Reading the very diverse listings of what each company decides a DBA is. Reading this thread shows the same thing. Years of experience and working with those who are learning, including me.
That I can agree with. But cross-platform knowledge into underlying o/s and storage systems i see as a required extention of a good dba's skillset.
And just for the record, the stop being elitist comment was aimed in general to this thread. Some of the posts are so arogant and close-minded and interestingly enough, not all are correct (not opinions, facts that have been given).
Adam Zacks-------------------------------------------Be Nice, Or Leave
November 2, 2011 at 6:34 am
Adam
And just for the record, the stop being elitist comment was aimed in general to this thread. Some of the posts are so arogant and close-minded and interestingly enough, not all are correct (not opinions, facts that have been given).
Agreed, which goes back to my first post on this thread - which was asking why all the discussion about something as ridiculous as to whether a interviewee should by docked for using SSMS and it's wizards or whether they know syntax off the top of their heads.
Steve Jimmo
Sr DBA
“If we ever forget that we are One Nation Under God, then we will be a Nation gone under." - Ronald Reagan
November 2, 2011 at 12:06 pm
sjimmo (11/2/2011)
I think that the days of a DBA knowing about networking, OS', packets, NTFS cluster sizes, etc are falling to the wayside.
Then they won't be DBAs long term.
Learning networking and Windows Server are important to any SQL Server DBA. I don't see that changing anytime soon.
In a large IT department where they put you in a silo (databases and only local admin on your servers), perhaps that overall knowledge is not important.
In a small/medium sized company where the DBA is given domain admin, then knowing how to do multiple roles is quite valuable.
These will be my active certifications 12 months from now. If I ever had to compete against other DBAs for a job, I think the solid Server Admin and Cisco experience would put this type of resume in the top 1%.
SQL Server 2008 (MCTS and MCITP)
Windows Server 2008 (MCTS and MCITP)
Cisco CCNA / CCNP
I also want to get certified on Netapp SANs because that is what we are currently using. Understanding the mechanics of the SAN play a critical role for a DBA these days. We shouldn't just coast and trust the SAN guy in the company. The DBA should be able to expand the drive(s) for the data or log files without having to get someone else involved.
Olders certs are MCDBA, MCSE, MCP, etc. I am a cert whore.
November 2, 2011 at 12:16 pm
JamesMorrison (11/2/2011)
sjimmo (11/2/2011)
I think that the days of a DBA knowing about networking, OS', packets, NTFS cluster sizes, etc are falling to the wayside.
Then they won't be DBAs long term.
Learning networking and Windows Server are important to any SQL Server DBA. I don't see that changing anytime soon.
In a large IT department where they put you in a silo (databases and only local admin on your servers), perhaps not. In a small/medium sized company where the DBA is given domain admin, then knowing how to do multiple roles is quite valuable.
These will be my active certifications 12 months from now. If I ever had to compete against other DBAs for a job, I think the solid Server Admin and Cisco experience would put this type of resume in the top 1%.
SQL Server 2008 (MCTS and MCITP)
Windows Server 2008 (MCTS and MCITP)
Cisco CCNA / CCNP
Olders certs are MCDBA, MCSE, MCP, etc. I am a cert whore.
Maybe for a very small business, but most of those don't need and can't afford someone with that level of skillset, unless they're in the jack-of-all-master-of-none category (which I'm assuming you are not).
I focus almost exclusively on SQL Server. I've been turned down by two interviewers, and both because I was asking for a lot more pay than someone else with adequate skills. (Well, other than the one where I committed a serious faux pas and told an interviewer who used to be a college prof that I didn't find college at all useful.) Otherwise, I've gone straight to the top of the stack every time. Six offers for six interviews last year, for example. And both of the pay-barrier ones, I was in the list of finalists till they decided they really couldnt afford my rates, per the managers.
Why? Because of the focus on SQL Server. They already had plenty of skilled generalists in most of the places (3 devs and an IT manager who could all spell "SQL" in one, for example), but they needed a specialist in SQL Server.
It's useful that I know how to do basic Windows admin functions. Can create a local account, map a network drive, write a .bat file that establishes NET USE connections and drops them after moving files around, that kind of thing. But it's never yet been a requirement in an interview. I don't think it's even been asked about in a tech screening.
- Gus "GSquared", RSVP, OODA, MAP, NMVP, FAQ, SAT, SQL, DNA, RNA, UOI, IOU, AM, PM, AD, BC, BCE, USA, UN, CF, ROFL, LOL, ETC
Property of The Thread
"Nobody knows the age of the human race, but everyone agrees it's old enough to know better." - Anon
November 2, 2011 at 1:46 pm
GSquared (11/2/2011)
Maybe for a very small business, but most of those don't need and can't afford someone with that level of skillset, unless they're in the jack-of-all-master-of-none category (which I'm assuming you are not).
I consider myself first and foremost a SQL Server DBA. That has always been my job title in some flavor for 11 years.
I have always had the MCSE since back in Windows NT 4.0 and MCDBA from SQL Server 7.
My guess is that since I have had the MCSE and I kept it updated with each version, I value the way it has helped me as a DBA knowing all of the little issues with the domain. It certainly helped me recently with a major Kerberos conflict we had in a SQL cluster.
GSquared (11/2/2011)
I focus almost exclusively on SQL Server. I've been turned down by two interviewers, and both because I was asking for a lot more pay than someone else with adequate skills. (Well, other than the one where I committed a serious faux pas and told an interviewer who used to be a college prof that I didn't find college at all useful.) Otherwise, I've gone straight to the top of the stack every time. Six offers for six interviews last year, for example. And both of the pay-barrier ones, I was in the list of finalists till they decided they really couldnt afford my rates, per the managers.
Why? Because of the focus on SQL Server. They already had plenty of skilled generalists in most of the places (3 devs and an IT manager who could all spell "SQL" in one, for example), but they needed a specialist in SQL Server.
I agree 100%. I think my salary is based on my SQL Server experience and skillset. I am not an expert Windows System Admin and I am not an expert Cisco network engineer. I have the certs, but I don't do those jobs every day. I have the foundation and I can follow those issues a lot better than most DBAs because I read the books and can do all of the basics. But as with anything, if you don't do it every day, you are not be an expert at it.
However, the reason I brought up the topic in response to sjimmo, is because I see value in a DBA having knowledge on the basics about networking, Active Directory, SANs, etc. The database touches all of those areas. Troubleshooting connectivity issues is often a DBA issue. Setting up a new SQL cluster involves the network, the domain, the SAN, etc.
It is easy enough to read a book and pass the basic exams. I have no plans to pass the Cisco CCIE. That is an insane certification that makes the MCM look easy. But I feel that a top notch SQL Server DBA should have at least the CCNA which is an entry level Cisco certification with a lot of useful knowledge. It is similar to the old SQL Server MCDBA when we took TCP/IP as an elective. It is useful to know the basics.
GSquared (11/2/2011)
It's useful that I know how to do basic Windows admin functions. Can create a local account, map a network drive, write a .bat file that establishes NET USE connections and drops them after moving files around, that kind of thing. But it's never yet been a requirement in an interview. I don't think it's even been asked about in a tech screening.
You are 100% correct on all counts. Most IT departments would not question you on that when seeking to fill a DBA position.
My attitude is that they are easy to get, especially after 10+ years of DBA experience. And knowing more details around system administration and the network will make you stand out in your company. Your resume will be at the very top of every HR department if you have some Cisco and SysAdmin certs backing up your already solid SQL Server experience.
I want to get certified on VMWare also. Every DBA should have some basic knowledge of how that works these days. In my company every Dev and QA SQL Server instance is on VMWare.
November 2, 2011 at 2:34 pm
Yes, environmental knowledge is good, but if I have time to study something job-related, I'd rather spend it on something directly within the SQL Server domain. Better ROI on my time, in my experience thus far.
If I have, for example, a day to study something for work, and get to choose between Active Directory, and SQL Denali's new partitioned aggregates, I'm going to study the Denali piece (SQL 2012 or whatever they're calling it this week).
I find there's never a lack of SQL Server material to learn, or get better at.
For example, I just recently was presented with a question on these forums about a moderately complex use of T-SQL's implementation of XQuery. In working out a solution for it, I figured out a way to speed up a couple of XQuery procedures that I use on a routine basis. I'm talking about the difference between glaciers and lightning on the speed.
I could easily have spent that time trying to figure out why a NET USE connection from one server to another is failing. Our domain admin is already working on it, but it would certainly have been a learning experience for me to at least ghost him on the solution.
The AD question is more likely to be useful in more situations, but it's also one outside my responsibility domain. The XQuery piece is only useful in a few situations, but it directly relates to database performance, and is thus squarely inside my domain. Which should I spend my day researching/learning? The XQuery one.
And I find that, no matter how much I know about SQL Server, my ignorance remains infinite and always open to reduction.
And that's why I disagree with your hypothesis. I'd rather spend my education time on what is more likely to pay the bills for me. And my boss would rather I spent that time that way too. As, I'm sure, any future employers will agree.
- Gus "GSquared", RSVP, OODA, MAP, NMVP, FAQ, SAT, SQL, DNA, RNA, UOI, IOU, AM, PM, AD, BC, BCE, USA, UN, CF, ROFL, LOL, ETC
Property of The Thread
"Nobody knows the age of the human race, but everyone agrees it's old enough to know better." - Anon
November 2, 2011 at 2:51 pm
GSquared, there really are no wrong answers here. 🙂
There are different types of "senior" DBAs. We all study and read what happens to interest us on a given day.
There are many SQL Server Central articles that I skip (sorry Steve Jones).
There are also many that I read when it is a topic that interests me.
I think that once you reach a certain level, then you have enough of a foundation to figure out just about anything SQL Server related with some modest search skills.
November 2, 2011 at 3:27 pm
GSquared (11/2/2011)
And I find that, no matter how much I know about SQL Server, my ignorance remains infinite and always open to reduction.
Amen, no matter how much I have learned there is an infinite amount I still have to learn. And the smartest people I know, know what they DON'T know.
CEWII
November 2, 2011 at 5:05 pm
Elliot
Amen, no matter how much I have learned there is an infinite amount I still have to learn. And the smartest people I know, know what they DON'T know.
So true - unfortunately there are many who can't/won't admit their limitations, which helped me to build a great business at one time just following them around.
I also agree, there is always much more to learn.
I would agree that also there should be a requirement to learn about SAN's, how they work and how you need it to work. I wasted a lot of time contradicting what the sales people were saying which worked fine if it was used solely for file servers.
I think that not knowing how networks work, AD, OS, etc can only make you more attractive especially if you are a consultant. Otherwse you are trusting that everyone else is at your level.
Steve Jimmo
Sr DBA
“If we ever forget that we are One Nation Under God, then we will be a Nation gone under." - Ronald Reagan
November 2, 2011 at 9:47 pm
sjimmo (11/2/2011)
Elliot
Amen, no matter how much I have learned there is an infinite amount I still have to learn. And the smartest people I know, know what they DON'T know.
So true - unfortunately there are many who can't/won't admit their limitations, which helped me to build a great business at one time just following them around.
I also agree, there is always much more to learn.
I would agree that also there should be a requirement to learn about SAN's, how they work and how you need it to work. I wasted a lot of time contradicting what the sales people were saying which worked fine if it was used solely for file servers.
I think that not knowing how networks work, AD, OS, etc can only make you more attractive especially if you are a consultant. Otherwse you are trusting that everyone else is at your level.
I think having a good amount of knowledge of TCP/IP, AD, various windows versions, windows networking, basic networking and connectivity, SAN basics, all in addition to strong database engine knowledge. As a junior DBA or even just a DBA I would strive to build this experience.
I always wonder why it is so hard to admit our limitations, there is no shame in it. I've had a few interviews in the past where a particular aspect of SQL was being used in that environment that I didn't have any or much experience with. Back in '99 it was transactional replication, never used it, never had a reason, the company I was interviewing with did and would. I was completely upfront about it but I was also happy to learn it.
A broad range of experience outside of just SQL adds to your value and provides you with valuable insight to evaluate different paths to solve a problem.
CEWII
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