October 26, 2011 at 7:31 pm
I know this thread's activity stopped a year ago, but I'm looking for some info on a company's desirability of a Master's Degree (MBA w/MIS) over a Bachelors Degree with experience for their candidates. Is there any real advantage to having an MBA (with MIS) over a Bachelors, with or without experience? I've done some fairly extensive research (OK... three hours of checking job listings!) and I have yet to find any company requiring a Masters.
Is this the general rule? Would someone actually be wasting time, to some level, working on an MBA versus going to work with a Bachelors?
Thanks in advance.
October 27, 2011 at 1:48 am
I have a non-senior DBA to do my restores for me 🙂
October 27, 2011 at 8:46 am
Ok, I have to...
What makes a good senior DBA.... it depends...
October 27, 2011 at 12:27 pm
But in an entry level situation, fresh out of college, would someone with an MBA degree with MIS have any advantage over someone with a Bachelors degree? I've been finding that in almost every instance a Bachelor degree with experience is sought after. The main reason I'm asking is that my almost 20 years of IT experience is very, very broad because I've had exposure in may different areas; but I've never specialized in anything because I've been involved in so many different projects over the years. I can't remember off-hand who said they didn't have their degree but was a DBA. I'm in a similar position in that I was hired into the IT industry before getting my AA, but I've been getting experience here and there OJT. I'd like to settle into a DBA position, but at this point I'd need training and certifications.
My SQL experience has been from SQL Server version 6.5 forward, but never in a DBA sense. General SQL coding since version 6.5, heavy SQL coding during a 2+ year data conversion project, installing SQL Server but not really tuning, writing stored procs and scripts for automation, using DTS packages, Reporting Services, Report Builder, etc. But to become a DBA, what would I need? That goes back to my question about a Masters degree vs. a Bachelors degree. Is there a real advantage to getting a Masters in my situation?
Oh... and I'm looking for work! 😀
October 27, 2011 at 1:45 pm
randy.worrell (10/27/2011)
But in an entry level situation, fresh out of college, would someone with an MBA degree with MIS have any advantage over someone with a Bachelors degree?
Only if they're being groomed for management, and someone fresh out of college would be hired in the management track if that's what they wanted.
I've been finding that in almost every instance a Bachelor degree with experience is sought after. The main reason I'm asking is that my almost 20 years of IT experience is very, very broad because I've had exposure in may different areas; but I've never specialized in anything because I've been involved in so many different projects over the years. I can't remember off-hand who said they didn't have their degree but was a DBA.
I'm another one of those.
You don't need certs, you usually need to prove you can do the job and tailor your resume to highlight DBA duties you've performed to get into the interviews. Bachelors (in anything) basically proves a level of intelligence and dedication that some managers desire more then us free-wheeling "We getz it done ourz way!" DBAs.
My SQL experience has been from SQL Server version 6.5 forward, but never in a DBA sense.
That'll be problematic.
General SQL coding since version 6.5, heavy SQL coding during a 2+ year data conversion project, installing SQL Server but not really tuning, writing stored procs and scripts for automation, using DTS packages, Reporting Services, Report Builder, etc. But to become a DBA, what would I need? That goes back to my question about a Masters degree vs. a Bachelors degree. Is there a real advantage to getting a Masters in my situation?
Masters: No, unless it's in mathmatics or statistics and you were planning on being one of the few to combine geekhood and mathmatical insanity in a BI context.
What you need is to be able to prove you can do the job. Know the recovery types and be able to understand their impacts. How to optimize a query that's nearly taking your server down. Security and the implications. It's a lot. You really would want to find a junior position if that's available. You're pretty generic in what you've done and if you want to get into primarily administration you need to find a position willing to work with getting you up to speed.
All a degree in the DB field proves is that you can remember your SSN. Some managers like it, but there's nothing you learn in school that helps you deal with fighting a series of blocks at 3AM when you're hungover because the guy who WAS on call isn't picking up his phone and some nutjob in marketing decided this was a good time to do research via cursors... and didn't tell anyone.
Never stop learning, even if it hurts. Ego bruises are practically mandatory as you learn unless you've never risked enough to make a mistake.
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October 27, 2011 at 2:13 pm
My SQL experience has been from SQL Server version 6.5 forward, but never in a DBA sense.
That'll be problematic.
Why problematic?
What you need is to be able to prove you can do the job. Know the recovery types and be able to understand their impacts. How to optimize a query that's nearly taking your server down. Security and the implications. It's a lot. You really would want to find a junior position if that's available. You're pretty generic in what you've done and if you want to get into primarily administration you need to find a position willing to work with getting you up to speed.
Woof! I think I could do that. Would a certification help me in this regard?
All a degree in the DB field proves is that you can remember your SSN. Some managers like it, but there's nothing you learn in school that helps you deal with fighting a series of blocks at 3AM when you're hungover because the guy who WAS on call isn't picking up his phone and some nutjob in marketing decided this was a good time to do research via cursors... and didn't tell anyone.
I've been in a similar situation, and was able to pull it off successfully. I used a trick that a lot of good IT'ers use: Once it's running again, you nod your head and mumble (loud enough to be heard), "That's what I thought it was." Then wander away, wiping your forehead and hoping it never happens again because you don't have a clue what broke. That way you keep your god-like status amongst the non-technical folks. 😀
October 27, 2011 at 2:24 pm
randy.worrell (10/27/2011)
My SQL experience has been from SQL Server version 6.5 forward, but never in a DBA sense.
That'll be problematic.
Why problematic?
DBAs are the first and last line of defense. If they royally screw it up, there's no recovery. If there's only minor screwups, they're holding up large portions of the business. Newbies usually need not apply unless the company's willing to do a lot of handholding.
Woof! I think I could do that. Would a certification help me in this regard?
I can tell you it mostly won't hurt. Help... there's been a lot of problems with Paper DBAs in the past who have kind of screwed the pooch on certifications being an impressive way to show value.
That way you keep your god-like status amongst the non-technical folks. 😀
:hehe:
Never stop learning, even if it hurts. Ego bruises are practically mandatory as you learn unless you've never risked enough to make a mistake.
For better assistance in answering your questions[/url] | Forum Netiquette
For index/tuning help, follow these directions.[/url] |Tally Tables[/url]
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October 27, 2011 at 2:48 pm
I think most senior level DBA's are happily employeed and, if not, are snatched up relatively quickly.
We have had a mid to junior level position open for the past month and have only had one applicant. It became rather painful trying to lead the candidate to the right answer. They had the same "deer in the headlights" looks someone else spoke about.
October 28, 2011 at 10:11 am
If someone has experience performance tuning databases or with disaster recovery, then the first clue is their resume. A candidate will typically provide a succinct overivew of previous positions they've held; which includes a list of tools used, roles, and responsibilities. If someone doesn't know what SQL Profiler is, not even enough to mention it on their resume, then they wouldn't even get a call back in my universe.
I've seen resumes submitted by people for the role of a senior level DBA, when looking at their job history, it's obvious their experience is in marketing or help desk. There may be some passing reference to "DBA" or "Five years experience with SQL Server", but if we're looking for a DBA or database developer, they need to at least identify themselves as such.
Honestly, I don't think someone can manage a pet store or teach full time at a university AND be a "senior" level DBA. I mean, you either spend your days scheduling backups and optimizing databases, or you don't.
"Do not seek to follow in the footsteps of the wise. Instead, seek what they sought." - Matsuo Basho
October 28, 2011 at 10:55 am
randy.worrell (10/26/2011)
I know this thread's activity stopped a year ago, but I'm looking for some info on a company's desirability of a Master's Degree (MBA w/MIS) over a Bachelors Degree with experience for their candidates. Is there any real advantage to having an MBA (with MIS) over a Bachelors, with or without experience? I've done some fairly extensive research (OK... three hours of checking job listings!) and I have yet to find any company requiring a Masters.Is this the general rule? Would someone actually be wasting time, to some level, working on an MBA versus going to work with a Bachelors?
Thanks in advance.
I don't have a degree at all (dropped out of both kindergarden and college; and not many can claim that!), but I've never yet had trouble getting work as a DBA, senior or otherwise, because of that. I've seen plenty of job listings that even said, "degree required", but only one of them actually meant it (and they wouldn't hire anyone without a degree for anything other than menial physical tasks). The rest have all fallen all over themselves to assure me that "comparable experience" was adequate to make up for the lack of degree.
- Gus "GSquared", RSVP, OODA, MAP, NMVP, FAQ, SAT, SQL, DNA, RNA, UOI, IOU, AM, PM, AD, BC, BCE, USA, UN, CF, ROFL, LOL, ETC
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October 28, 2011 at 10:57 am
randy.worrell (10/27/2011)
But in an entry level situation, fresh out of college, would someone with an MBA degree with MIS have any advantage over someone with a Bachelors degree? I've been finding that in almost every instance a Bachelor degree with experience is sought after. The main reason I'm asking is that my almost 20 years of IT experience is very, very broad because I've had exposure in may different areas; but I've never specialized in anything because I've been involved in so many different projects over the years. I can't remember off-hand who said they didn't have their degree but was a DBA. I'm in a similar position in that I was hired into the IT industry before getting my AA, but I've been getting experience here and there OJT. I'd like to settle into a DBA position, but at this point I'd need training and certifications.My SQL experience has been from SQL Server version 6.5 forward, but never in a DBA sense. General SQL coding since version 6.5, heavy SQL coding during a 2+ year data conversion project, installing SQL Server but not really tuning, writing stored procs and scripts for automation, using DTS packages, Reporting Services, Report Builder, etc. But to become a DBA, what would I need? That goes back to my question about a Masters degree vs. a Bachelors degree. Is there a real advantage to getting a Masters in my situation?
Oh... and I'm looking for work! 😀
I can't speak directly for the Bachelor's vs Master's degree, not having either, but my experience in the field of getting hired leans towards "no matter the degree, actual experience will count more".
- Gus "GSquared", RSVP, OODA, MAP, NMVP, FAQ, SAT, SQL, DNA, RNA, UOI, IOU, AM, PM, AD, BC, BCE, USA, UN, CF, ROFL, LOL, ETC
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October 30, 2011 at 1:07 pm
tgarland (10/27/2011)
I think most senior level DBA's are happily employeed and, if not, are snatched up relatively quickly.
I think this is likely the case. Someone mentioned that the unemployment rate for experienced DBAs is under 1%.
In a healthy economy 4% is considered full employment where if you want a job, you can find one.
In the case for DBAs, the recruiters have to try to lure them away from their existing positions.
October 30, 2011 at 8:01 pm
GilaMonster (10/20/2010)
paul.knibbs (10/20/2010)
Maybe, but if you've been asked in an interview to do a single restore, I don't see that it's unreasonable to use the GUI to do it.Absolutely. It's how I'd do it for one restore. Faster than typing backup and database file names, especially if it's a system I'm not familiar with.
Me too. The thing is that a single restore on the sort of system I've used (weekly full backup, daily incremental, log backup every 15 minutes) will typically involve about 20 restore commands and it takes a long time to type all that; it took me a couple of hours to write a general script to discover what backups are available ands generate and run the necessary commands (since I didn't write it more than once, I didn't get practise so as to learn how to write it quickly - one of my faults is being lazy, which makes me try to get things right first time so that I don't have to do them again; this means I don't learn how to do them quickly, but does no harm as I usually only want to do things quickly if I do them often; things that I can do once in advance to anticipate any need don't need to be done quickly). The GUI allows me to do the single restore interaction, restoring 20 or backup files, a lot faster than I could type 20 or so commands, or regenerate and run that script (which unfortunately is the intellectual property of a previous employer, so being a good boy I no longer possess a copy; and anyway it probably only worked on SQL 2000, so not much use today).
And then of course even if you had that script you would have to ask how would the interviewer react if you said "well I wrote this clever script, I have it on my pen, can I load it onto your system to show you how it works?". I don't think there'd be a good reaction (if there was, I'd want to ask ll sorts of questions about how they sanitised the system I was allowed to load it onto). And the reaction would probably be even worse if I said "give me a couple of hours to look up the necessary commands to discover what backup files exist for the database and write a script using them to do the restore".
I wonder whether the original point about scripting was based on the idea that someone wants to hire a senior DBA who thinks that a full restore consists of a single RESTORE DATABASE command; if so... no comment, because I don't want to be rude.
Tom
October 30, 2011 at 8:22 pm
Eric M Russell (10/28/2011)
If someone has experience performance tuning databases or with disaster recovery, then the first clue is their resume. A candidate will typically provide a succinct overivew of previous positions they've held; which includes a list of tools used, roles, and responsibilities. If someone doesn't know what SQL Profiler is, not even enough to mention it on their resume, then they wouldn't even get a call back in my universe.
Someone with a serious amount of experience can't mention all the tools they've used on a resume. You want both "succinct" and "list of tools used" but they are mutually contradictory. I've never put "SQL Profiler" on my resume, not because I haven't used it extensively but because if I go down to that level of detail I'll end up with a silly number of pages instead of just 2 (which, I can assure you, is the maximum number any sane recruiter pays any attention to).
Tom
October 30, 2011 at 8:37 pm
GSquared (10/28/2011)
I can't speak directly for the Bachelor's vs Master's degree, not having either, but my experience in the field of getting hired leans towards "no matter the degree, actual experience will count more".
I've got both (amongst other things :-P) and I reckon they counted for approximately zilch once I had 18 months experience. When recruiting very junior people I have taken degrees into account; not for anyone more senior than very junior.
There are some companies who won't employ people in technical jobs unless they have a degree, some who insist on a masters, and some who insist on a doctorate. They are all being silly, unless these rules apply only to junior recruits, and silly companies don't become big enough to emply large numbers of people, so there's no need to worry about them - they don't provide many jobs.
Govenment controlled jobs are of course different - red tape rules, and it the red tape says "Masters required" that's it, and the Darwinian effect that such red tape has on non-government organisations doesn't apply, because politicians are in charge and incompetence and inefficiency are no problem.
Tom
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