July 22, 2013 at 6:50 am
george sibbald (7/19/2013)
renamed to SSDTBI to avoid confusion! could have fooled me.So with SQL2012 and 2014 install media we dont get the option to install the BIDS equivalent? that sounds a backward step. Or have I misunderstood?
Are SSDT and SSDTBI separate things? which one do I install for developing SSIS packages?
:unsure:
BIDS (SQL 2005, 2008, 2008R2) became SSDT (SQL 2012) and then SSDTBI (SQL 2014, SQL 2012 tools for VS2012).
Blah.. by SQL Server 2016 it will probably be SSDTBIVPKA for of course SSDT BI Vertipaq Killer App
July 22, 2013 at 9:11 am
selected SSDT as didn't think about 2014 version there...
July 22, 2013 at 11:19 am
Interesting question.
t
I was sorely tempted to answer "notepad" or "ssms" because that's probably what I would use if I had to extract some business intelligence from some data using a modern version of SQL Server. In fact notepad and Query Analyser were the tools I used for that job with SQL 2000. But every time I flipped a coin to choose between the two it stood on its edge, clearly indicating that I was fated discover the required answer, so I got it right instead of telling the truth (the question does say "what would you use", and notepad or SSMS is what I would use at present) 😀
I suppose I ought to install BIDS and learn to use it on 2008R2 and install SSDTBI on my win 8/SQL 2012 machine and learn that too, but I'm not sure I'm sufficiently interested - I hope I can write better SQL than either of the tools can, and if they write some weird multidimensional analysis language instead of SQL it would be more fun to learn to write that, and learning to write it better than the tools can should be easy unless these tools are pretty remarkable. :laugh:
Tom
July 22, 2013 at 12:36 pm
Bajrang (7/22/2013)
selected SSDT as didn't think about 2014 version there...
SSDTBI is also released for SQL Server 2012: it integrates within Visual Studio 2012.
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July 23, 2013 at 10:08 am
L' Eomot Inversé (7/22/2013)
I suppose I ought to install BIDS and learn to use it on 2008R2 and install SSDTBI on my win 8/SQL 2012 machine and learn that too, but I'm not sure I'm sufficiently interested - I hope I can write better SQL than either of the tools can, and if they write some weird multidimensional analysis language instead of SQL it would be more fun to learn to write that, and learning to write it better than the tools can should be easy unless these tools are pretty remarkable. :laugh:
I am sure for you they would be useless. It would only be needed if you wanted to do actual report writing, data mining, task automation, or use any of the other new features in MS SQL Server 2005 - 2012. I am sure you would rather use BCP, notepad and the command line to debug sql statements than something that was written this decade Century era. :hehe:
July 24, 2013 at 8:26 am
PHYData DBA (7/23/2013)
L' Eomot Inversé (7/22/2013)
I suppose I ought to install BIDS and learn to use it on 2008R2 and install SSDTBI on my win 8/SQL 2012 machine and learn that too, but I'm not sure I'm sufficiently interested - I hope I can write better SQL than either of the tools can, and if they write some weird multidimensional analysis language instead of SQL it would be more fun to learn to write that, and learning to write it better than the tools can should be easy unless these tools are pretty remarkable. :laugh:I am sure for you they would be useless. It would only be needed if you wanted to do actual report writing, data mining, task automation, or use any of the other new features in MS SQL Server 2005 - 2012. I am sure you would rather use BCP, notepad and the command line to debug sql statements than something that was written this
decadeCenturyera. :hehe:
Well, it certainly ought to be possible to write decent tools to help with data mining and report writing, but to do so would require a good sound knowledge of ergonomics and understanding of the factors that are important in the design of human-machine interfaces as well as a sound understanding of the underlying technology, and of those subjects, unfortunately, all but understanding the underlying technology are unpopular and sadly neglected in connection with database-related tools in the modern era (and in some areas, even the underlying technology is not well understood by the tools writers - look at the code generated by an ORM for a nice example :w00t:). The result is that the tools are barbarously crude and complex and unpleasant to use :hehe:. I can't call them "indecent", as that would surely be misinterpreted, but they sure aint decent! :laugh:
Tom
July 24, 2013 at 8:42 am
L' Eomot Inversé (7/24/2013)
PHYData DBA (7/23/2013)
L' Eomot Inversé (7/22/2013)
I suppose I ought to install BIDS and learn to use it on 2008R2 and install SSDTBI on my win 8/SQL 2012 machine and learn that too, but I'm not sure I'm sufficiently interested - I hope I can write better SQL than either of the tools can, and if they write some weird multidimensional analysis language instead of SQL it would be more fun to learn to write that, and learning to write it better than the tools can should be easy unless these tools are pretty remarkable. :laugh:I am sure for you they would be useless. It would only be needed if you wanted to do actual report writing, data mining, task automation, or use any of the other new features in MS SQL Server 2005 - 2012. I am sure you would rather use BCP, notepad and the command line to debug sql statements than something that was written this
decadeCenturyera. :hehe:Well, it certainly ought to be possible to write decent tools to help with data mining and report writing, but to do so would require a good sound knowledge of ergonomics and understanding of the factors that are important in the design of human-machine interfaces as well as a sound understanding of the underlying technology, and of those subjects, unfortunately, all but understanding the underlying technology are unpopular and sadly neglected in connection with database-related tools in the modern era (and in some areas, even the underlying technology is not well understood by the tools writers - look at the code generated by an ORM for a nice example :w00t:). The result is that the tools are barbarously crude and complex and unpleasant to use :hehe:. I can't call them "indecent", as that would surely be misinterpreted, but they sure aint decent! :laugh:
Tom, I often agree with you on these forums - but in this case, I think you're wrong. Have you been looking at recent developments? Have you ever seen demos of, for instance, Power View? Or Power Query?
While these are probably not intuitive to the complete new computer user (do they still exist??), or to a hardened techie such as us, they are superb for business users / decision makers, who spend most of their time in Excel spreadsheets anyway.
July 24, 2013 at 9:24 am
Hugo Kornelis (7/24/2013)
L' Eomot Inversé (7/24/2013)
PHYData DBA (7/23/2013)
L' Eomot Inversé (7/22/2013)
I suppose I ought to install BIDS and learn to use it on 2008R2 and install SSDTBI on my win 8/SQL 2012 machine and learn that too, but I'm not sure I'm sufficiently interested - I hope I can write better SQL than either of the tools can, and if they write some weird multidimensional analysis language instead of SQL it would be more fun to learn to write that, and learning to write it better than the tools can should be easy unless these tools are pretty remarkable. :laugh:I am sure for you they would be useless. It would only be needed if you wanted to do actual report writing, data mining, task automation, or use any of the other new features in MS SQL Server 2005 - 2012. I am sure you would rather use BCP, notepad and the command line to debug sql statements than something that was written this
decadeCenturyera. :hehe:Well, it certainly ought to be possible to write decent tools to help with data mining and report writing, but to do so would require a good sound knowledge of ergonomics and understanding of the factors that are important in the design of human-machine interfaces as well as a sound understanding of the underlying technology, and of those subjects, unfortunately, all but understanding the underlying technology are unpopular and sadly neglected in connection with database-related tools in the modern era (and in some areas, even the underlying technology is not well understood by the tools writers - look at the code generated by an ORM for a nice example :w00t:). The result is that the tools are barbarously crude and complex and unpleasant to use :hehe:. I can't call them "indecent", as that would surely be misinterpreted, but they sure aint decent! :laugh:
Tom, I often agree with you on these forums - but in this case, I think you're wrong. Have you been looking at recent developments? Have you ever seen demos of, for instance, Power View? Or Power Query?
While these are probably not intuitive to the complete new computer user (do they still exist??), or to a hardened techie such as us, they are superb for business users / decision makers, who spend most of their time in Excel spreadsheets anyway.
Thanks Hugo. I wont go as far to say that SSRS, SSAS, and SSIS can replace Power Center/ BI Report or COGNOS. However If you spend the time to learn to use the new BI tool stack and understand how to configure Visio correctly the latest tools from M$ give you much more than you will ever get out of Notepad and the command line. What other SQL server product out there has a built in Reports server that allows end users to write their own reports and report filters against data cubes? As for ORM tools I still do not know of one (including Power Flow) that works as well for designing and building OLAP cubes as SSDT. Maybe I am not looking in the right price range. I know Pentaho is great with big data, but I don't want to spend six figures on something that is a free download for me with SSDT.
July 24, 2013 at 9:26 am
Agree. PowerView is a DAX client. DAX is a query language for business/power users coming from an Excel background. There is also a DAX to SQL translator engine in SSAS 2012 as well for clients that are so data voluminous that DirectQuery mode in the SSAS Tabular Model may need to be used. BI for the masses, guys 😉
However, I do agree with Tom in that some of the SQL/MDX generated by previous tools (be they MS or third party) did not always generate the best RDBMS/MDBMS syntax to get the job done--thereby leaving deep rooted scars for many....
July 24, 2013 at 9:39 am
sneumersky (7/24/2013)
Agree. PowerView is a DAX client. DAX is a query language for business/power users coming from an Excel background. There is also a DAX to SQL translator engine in SSAS 2012 as well for clients that are so data voluminous that DirectQuery mode in the SSAS Tabular Model may need to be used. BI for the masses, guys 😉However, I do agree with Tom in that some of the SQL/MDX generated by previous tools (be they MS or third party) did not always generate the best RDBMS/MDBMS syntax to get the job done--thereby leaving deep rooted scars for many....
:w00t: I would have to agree that many of us carry scars of first version tools for first run tech. Remember the first time you had to use an X style interface? The wonderful subtleties of pivot statements? Auto generation of code (or select statements) can be dicey when using any language dev environment. It takes knowledge and practice to do anything well not matter who or what you are. Everything gets better with practice, knowledge, and time. Dvorak had issues the first time he used his own product. Now there are people that can not think about life without it.
July 24, 2013 at 10:42 am
Hugo Kornelis (7/24/2013)
Tom, I often agree with you on these forums - but in this case, I think you're wrong. Have you been looking at recent developments? Have you ever seen demos of, for instance, Power View? Or Power Query?While these are probably not intuitive to the complete new computer user (do they still exist??), or to a hardened techie such as us, they are superb for business users / decision makers, who spend most of their time in Excel spreadsheets anyway.
Well, I probably ought to do some catching up. I'm not up to date on any of this. Having seen the awfulness that came out of some report generators up to 9 or 10 years ago I stopped looking at them - it was vastly cheaper in terms of effort expended, compute time, disc time, and store occupancy to write reports using SQL stored procedures to get the data and JavaScript both to generate HTML incorporating that data and to email the result to where it was needed. But I need to look and see what has happened in the last decade or so, whether it's usable, and whether it's now economical.
Of course for people who spend most of their time in Excel spreadsheets, presumably doing arcane things with visual basic, almost anything will look like a nice to use interface; and for some Excel addicts the concept of HCI may be irrelevant, as they may have suffered the consequences attributed by Dijkstra to the learning of Basic, i.e. lost their natural human capacity to understand computation.
Tom
July 24, 2013 at 12:41 pm
L' Eomot Inversé (7/24/2013)
..... Of course for people who spend most of their time in Excel spreadsheets, presumably doing arcane things with visual basic, almost anything will look like a nice to use interface; and for some Excel addicts the concept of HCI may be irrelevant, as they may have suffered the consequences attributed by Dijkstra to the learning of Basic, i.e. lost their natural human capacity to understand computation.
:laugh: Tom, you had to know this made me laugh. When nobody I worked with understood why it's funny, I laughed even harder. I guess it just takes an old school Excel Addict to get it.
July 25, 2013 at 2:49 pm
Koen Verbeeck (7/19/2013)
Michael Riemer (7/19/2013)
IgorMi (7/19/2013)
BIDS will stay among the folks, as shorter it is as easier to use.+1
Don't understand the logic of the insistance on renaming something that everyone is happy with - except maybe someone who is probably in marketing!!! This reminds me of the confuision behind "cubes" and "symantic layer" (well almost!!!)
How long before it is simply reverted back to BIDS???
:crazy:
You're right, it is crazy. That's the whole point of this QotD. Highlight the "stupidity" of renaming a well known product two times, which leads only to confusion.
+11001
Jason...AKA CirqueDeSQLeil
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August 1, 2013 at 1:20 am
Koen Verbeeck (7/19/2013)
Michael Riemer (7/19/2013)
IgorMi (7/19/2013)
BIDS will stay among the folks, as shorter it is as easier to use.+1
Don't understand the logic of the insistance on renaming something that everyone is happy with - except maybe someone who is probably in marketing!!! This reminds me of the confuision behind "cubes" and "symantic layer" (well almost!!!)
How long before it is simply reverted back to BIDS???
:crazy:
You're right, it is crazy. That's the whole point of this QotD. Highlight the "stupidity" of renaming a well known product two times, which leads only to confusion.
I don't understand the logic behind it (renaming). I simply went for BIDS. It's much like the base character has been changed from your famous TV serial (and you start losing interest as you are attached to theat particular mapping of the character to the actor, though it's not as straight in real time scenario). We'll have to live with it. :angry:
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