July 10, 2008 at 6:58 am
CarlosHawes (7/9/2008)
Wayne West (7/9/2008)
CarlosHawes (7/9/2008)
... I've gotta have my UNIX shell scripts. ...I can't comment on shell scripts, but I've written two Perl programs to help me with day-to-day operations, and they save me a bucket of time. Maybe a bucket and a half.
😀
One of these days I'll do an article about Perl & SQL Server....
I would love to see such an article. I presently use bash shell scripts from cron jobs on a windows box set up as a cygwin environment. I took what I knew from Oracle/UNIX and forced it to work on windows. Probably not the most efficient path, but it got the job done.
I guess that's why I wish MS would port MSSQL to different OSes. Some of us have spent a lot of time learning the quirks and powers of UNIX and would love to leverage that skill in our MSSQL DBA work.
You've seen SQL Server MVP Linchi Shea's book, right? If not, here's the title:
Real World SQL Server Administration with Perl
It's from the SQL Server 2000 days, but it's a good one. A lot of things in it that would be of use to a SQL Server DBA.
K. Brian Kelley
@kbriankelley
July 10, 2008 at 7:15 am
Steve, as far as the term limits, just because you move a few people out is no reason to lower the bar. Say you have 200 MVP's and you push 1/3 out on Dec 31. Nothing says you have to elect a matching 1/3 back in. If you have candidates, good, if not, that's good too. Perhaps not good for MS in general, but I think more interesting for the community.
I was at a working dinner last night with some students and the topic of MVP's came up, they all wanted to know 'what does it take to become an MVP', and as we've discussed here, wasn't able to provide much of answer. Clearly they all believed MVP = expert, which is sometimes true, but sometimes it's MVP = Community, or MVP = Passion. Not complaining about that, all of those bring something interesting to the table, the point is that the average Joe is more than a little interested.
Rick, I liked what you wrote and salute your efforts over the years (and you'd think they wouldnt sent out such things on Apr 1!). As far as not having Kalen, Kimberly, or others in the group, for me it's tough love. I'd like to think that both of them (I know neither of them personally) and others that work at that level would continue to learn and grow during the year break (or exile if you're cynical). Could it hurt them temporarily because of the lack of access to NDA material? Sure. Does it hurt their career/business - I doubt that, reputations are well established. And while the MVP group and MS would miss the depth they offer for a year, my hope - no guarantee - is that would be more than offset by the benefits of bringing in some new voices. One of the interesting side affects of my suggestion is that people do get to take a break from the MVP treadmill as it were.
For me it's back to two things. One is I think everyone deserves to have a reasonably clear understanding of why someone is an MVP, not to judge whether fair or not, but to appreciate their efforts and give them a basis for deciding if they have the stuff to get in the game. The other is that new blood is absolutely critical to the health of any organization over the long term, people fall into ruts, alliances (and enemies) are found, politics happens, etc. Said differently, it's human nature to be captured by the system in one form or another. Rotating members is a great way to reduce that, though it certainly can't be removed entirely.
July 10, 2008 at 7:23 am
Agreed that you don't have to lower the bar, but this is a corporate program , like any other. Removing 100 MVPs in Dec and bringing back 20 impacts budgeting and spending and then perhaps makes it harder to bring in 100 in March if 100 more leave, or even bring back 150 in March.
Cynical as well about that.
I do think the competition generated is good, again, that med school philosophy. I think the bar raises constantly for more effort being put into the community, though I'd agree it gets gamed more.
MVP != expert, it can be, but not necessarily. It's definitely passion and community.
New people are necessary, and given that more people are trying harder, and I'm not sure I am, there should be at least one new person next year.
I've also personally known at least 3 people this year that were not renewed.
July 10, 2008 at 7:46 am
The renewals are not as "automatic" as they have been. I believe they are looking for new blood and evaluate the performance evenly. If an MVP is not as involved as he/she used to be or perhaps their involvement is now not as great when compared with new nominees, the person must step up or not be surprised at not being renewed.
I believe that Brian Moran and Fernando have removed themselves from the award. They are not as involved in the technical side of the house as they have been and feel the award would be better used by someone else.
Also, MSFT can reduce the number of MVPs by hiring them. An MVP award is for non-MSFT personnel. 🙂 Buck Woody comes to mind immediately.
I believe that Ken Henderson had in the back of one of his books a section on how to become an MVP. It was a little cynical and also was focused on newsgroups. I don't have it handy where I am right now, but take alook at it and have a chuckle.
Rick...
July 10, 2008 at 7:58 am
GilaMonster (7/9/2008)
CarlosHawes (7/9/2008)
But I find myself wondering if a SQL Sever MVP could safely recommend that a client deploy Oracle, mySQL, Postrese, or DB2 and still be an MVP the next cycle.The South African MVPS (all of them, not just SQL Server), put on a full day workshop a few weeks back on windows, Linux, PHP, Java and Apache. The workshop was done at the MS offices, with full blessing of MS and the local MVP lead.
I do sense a change in the air from MS. They have always TALKED interoperability, but now I think there is a increasing influential group within MS that wants to make it a reality. As the old guard retires and moves on the "kill everything not MS" attitude may be waning. I welcome the trend. I'm ready for a little detente.
I think I, like a lot of others who spent a lot of their careers in the UNIX/Oracle environment have gotten so defensive because we have spent a lot of our careers dealing with situations in which MS advocates come into our shops and try to rip out and replace existing proven systems with Windows/SQL Server just because MS technology is what THEY know. I feel like its has been 12 years of constant warfare and it gets old after a while.
I think the true measure of when true peace arrives is the day when MS finally releases one of its premier enterprise apps on an OS other than Windows. SQL Server would be my choice. After all, I can run Oracle on Windows, why not MSSQL on UNIX or Linux?
July 10, 2008 at 8:03 am
Rick Heiges (7/10/2008)
I believe that Ken Henderson had in the back of one of his books a section on how to become an MVP. It was a little cynical and also was focused on newsgroups. I don't have it handy where I am right now, but take alook at it and have a chuckle.Rick...
It is in The Guru's Guide to SQL Server Architecture and Internals. It's an appendix labeled Psuedo-Techie Tactics 101: How to Make Yourself Appear to Be an Expert via Newsgroup Postings.
K. Brian Kelley
@kbriankelley
July 10, 2008 at 8:08 am
Andy Warren (7/10/2008)
Rick, I liked what you wrote and salute your efforts over the years (and you'd think they wouldnt sent out such things on Apr 1!). As far as not having Kalen, Kimberly, or others in the group, for me it's tough love. I'd like to think that both of them (I know neither of them personally) and others that work at that level would continue to learn and grow during the year break (or exile if you're cynical). Could it hurt them temporarily because of the lack of access to NDA material? Sure. Does it hurt their career/business - I doubt that, reputations are well established. And while the MVP group and MS would miss the depth they offer for a year, my hope - no guarantee - is that would be more than offset by the benefits of bringing in some new voices. One of the interesting side affects of my suggestion is that people do get to take a break from the MVP treadmill as it were.
If a particular MVP is that valuable to Microsoft with respect to depth, there's nothing saying Microsoft can't extend the newsgroups to 'em. Certainly that already have built in-roads into the folks at Microsoft. The NDA can be handled just as Microsoft would a valued business partner... Which, BTW, would ensure that the folks that really benefit and use the NDA material could still get access to it. I know that when I was in the USAF, because of the nature of my unit's mission, we basically had NDAs with Microsoft and Intel since we handled the computer contracts for the Air Force. Ours was more on the marketing and release side of the house (so we knew things like the processor capabilities and the roadmap for production and availability before the public did), but it shows that if there is a benefit on the business side, these companies can extend that knowledge.
K. Brian Kelley
@kbriankelley
July 10, 2008 at 8:13 am
CarlosHawes (7/10/2008)I think the true measure of when true peace arrives is the day when MS finally releases one of its premier enterprise apps on an OS other than Windows. SQL Server would be my choice. After all, I can run Oracle on Windows, why not MSSQL on UNIX or Linux?
It's ultimately a business decision, and a pretty significant one. Releasing SQL Server on another OS would mean staffing up for that OS, maintaining separate code bases, etc. Microsoft went down this road with respect to the operating system. I still remember fondly my DEC Alphastation running Windows NT 4.0. But the return they were getting by supporting NT on multiple hardware platforms wasn't justifying the cost. As a result, we have Windows on Intel platforms exclusively now. From the other side of the fence (Oracle), if Windows is the dominant operating system or if it has a significantly increasing presence in your primary customer base, it only makes sense to get your product on Windows.
Would I love to see Microsoft SQL Server on Linux? Absolutely. But do me a favor, MS. Get it on Windows Server Core, first.
K. Brian Kelley
@kbriankelley
July 10, 2008 at 8:15 am
K. Brian Kelley (7/10/2008)You've seen SQL Server MVP Linchi Shea's book, right? If not, here's the title:
Real World SQL Server Administration with Perl
It's from the SQL Server 2000 days, but it's a good one. A lot of things in it that would be of use to a SQL Server DBA.
Thanks, I knew of books on doing admin tasks on Windows servers, but I don't think I'd heard of this one. I'm jumping over to Amazon & Half to see if I can find a copy.
I'm doing pretty trivial stuff with Perl: reformatting scripts and pulling/consolidating logs, I'm sure the book is much more useful. It was an effort to learn Perl through doing some practical tasks.
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[font="Arial"]Knowledge is of two kinds. We know a subject ourselves or we know where we can find information upon it. --Samuel Johnson[/font]
July 10, 2008 at 8:18 am
K. Brian Kelley (7/10/2008)... I still remember fondly my DEC Alphastation running Windows NT 4.0. ...
I remember going to a Comdex in Vegas one year (mid/late 90's?) and seeing a Dec Alpha Laptop running NT! What a beauty! It never saw the light of day, but that's one of the few machines that I actually lusted over.
😀
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[font="Arial"]Knowledge is of two kinds. We know a subject ourselves or we know where we can find information upon it. --Samuel Johnson[/font]
July 10, 2008 at 8:59 am
K. Brian Kelley (7/10/2008)
CarlosHawes (7/10/2008)I think the true measure of when true peace arrives is the day when MS finally releases one of its premier enterprise apps on an OS other than Windows. SQL Server would be my choice. After all, I can run Oracle on Windows, why not MSSQL on UNIX or Linux?
It's ultimately a business decision, and a pretty significant one. Releasing SQL Server on another OS would mean staffing up for that OS, maintaining separate code bases, etc. Microsoft went down this road with respect to the operating system. I still remember fondly my DEC Alphastation running Windows NT 4.0. But the return they were getting by supporting NT on multiple hardware platforms wasn't justifying the cost. As a result, we have Windows on Intel platforms exclusively now. From the other side of the fence (Oracle), if Windows is the dominant operating system or if it has a significantly increasing presence in your primary customer base, it only makes sense to get your product on Windows.
Would I love to see Microsoft SQL Server on Linux? Absolutely. But do me a favor, MS. Get it on Windows Server Core, first.
Yes it is indeed a business decision. But Sysbase still manages to release SQL Server for multiple platforms with much lower staffing levels. I think MS was making a strategic decision to continue trying to lock users into all MS environments. Microsoft is almost alone now among major enterprise software vendors in doggedly continuing to release their apps on only one OS (of course they are also the only such vendor to also "own" an OS, so its only natural to support it in such a way). That is still their business model from the 1990's that got them into trouble with the DOJ. It's time to move into the new millennium and start "playing nice with others."
Thanks for the advice on the book "Real World SQL Server Administration with Perl". I'll have to look that up! One advantage to our increased attention to MSSQL in my shop is that it is currently easier to get book purchases approved 😀
Best wishes!!!! This forum is proving a great resource as I try to climb the learning curve and add MSSQL Administration to my skill set. Everyone here is so helpful to others and those trying to learn.
July 12, 2008 at 12:34 am
MVP for the most part is a marketing whore.
There are a lot of companies that do it. They pick pick online "evangelists" on forums and use them to promote products. The "evangelists" like the attention and play along - its like pretending you are a little online celebrity. Some of the MVPs are knowledgeable, some are people that spend too much time online. Most people recognize it for what it is though, free marketing for M$ (or any other company who does it). If your advice or endorsement is really that valuable you would be paid money for it, or if you are interested in giving advice to help people for free - you would do that without looking for pretend ego-boosting compensation.
If someone asks you to be an MVP, tell them your bill rate or that you are willing to negotiate a six figure contract - if they back off on the "MVP" talk - you know what it is really worth...
July 12, 2008 at 10:02 am
cgnospam (7/12/2008)
MVP for the most part is a marketing whore.There are a lot of companies that do it. They pick pick online "evangelists" on forums and use them to promote products. The "evangelists" like the attention and play along - its like pretending you are a little online celebrity. Some of the MVPs are knowledgeable, some are people that spend too much time online. Most people recognize it for what it is though, free marketing for M$ (or any other company who does it). If your advice or endorsement is really that valuable you would be paid money for it, or if you are interested in giving advice to help people for free - you would do that without looking for pretend ego-boosting compensation.
If someone asks you to be an MVP, tell them your bill rate or that you are willing to negotiate a six figure contract - if they back off on the "MVP" talk - you know what it is really worth...
Woo-hoo! Remind me to take you to dinner, sometime. You like porkchops?
--Jeff Moden
Change is inevitable... Change for the better is not.
July 12, 2008 at 10:15 am
I'd argue against the marketing comment for the most part. There are people that fit that category. Without a doubt.
But most of the MVPs I know, and I think I know 30 or 40 of them, are professionals that donate their time to help others and enjoy writing about SQL Server. That's the way I started this site, not expecting it to make much $$, but never feeling I'd wasted a moment when the first two years didn't produce any profit.
I think many MVPs, myself included, would still be out there answering questions and writing articles.
There are quite a few companies that reward their MVPs financially, and most give them time off to work on projects related to their MVP award. They recognize the value of having highly skilled professionals around that enjoy the award.
July 12, 2008 at 6:58 pm
Steve Jones - Editor (7/12/2008)
I'd argue against the marketing comment for the most part. There are people that fit that category. Without a doubt.But most of the MVPs I know, and I think I know 30 or 40 of them, are professionals that donate their time to help others and enjoy writing about SQL Server. That's the way I started this site, not expecting it to make much $$, but never feeling I'd wasted a moment when the first two years didn't produce any profit.
I think many MVPs, myself included, would still be out there answering questions and writing articles.
There are quite a few companies that reward their MVPs financially, and most give them time off to work on projects related to their MVP award. They recognize the value of having highly skilled professionals around that enjoy the award.
Having known a few awardees personally before they received the MVP award (including Steve), I'm going to have to agree with Steve here. The ones I know, if anything, have worked harder for the community since receiving the award. And they were already heavy contributors. I've seen cases where MVPs have taken a lot of time, pro bono, to help someone on a forum or newsgroup. I've seen them take it off-line and continue to help. And, BTW, some of these guys are consultants making a lot of money. I can think of the ActiveDir forum, to give an example other than SQL Server, where those folks constantly go above and beyond. You've got folks who've managed HUGE AD environments, hundreds of thousands of objects, taking the time to walk a school IT administrator through how to get his single site, 50 user domain back on-line from backup. Why did they do it? Because that administrator needed help and they had the time to provide it. No other compensation was required.
From my personal interaction, I know of cases where folks had a question to ask and I didn't know the answer, but I forwarded it to one of the MVPs who I knew would. In every single case they responded back with a comprehensive answer, often within a day or two. And I certainly have asked questions privately and gotten quick and thoughtful responses as well. In other words, they aren't marketing shills and they didn't set out to win the award, it was given to them because they were deserving of it.
It's easy to dismiss MVPs as marketing shills for MS, but before you do, I'd challenge you to actually get to know them as people. It doesn't take any effort to generalize a group of people and just make assumptions. It's a whole different matter to actually investigate whether or not your assumptions as true. I think that if you do, you'll find your assumptions are off-base, and you'll meet some great people in the process.
K. Brian Kelley
@kbriankelley
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