April 21, 2010 at 3:18 pm
I'd be concerned about being paid yourself. If they're willing to screw a company, what are the going to do to a solitary consultant? I'm not sure if a retainer is enough. A retainer and an agreement that nothing gets handed over until paid for - that might do it.
Taking the job after they did that to your boss is like dating a girl who cheated on her last boyfriend with you. If you don't expect that same to happen to you, then you are a fool.
On the other hand, if your company didn't have a contract of some sort to protect them from this sort of thing - well, then it's they're own fault. Hopefully they're using this as a learning experience...
April 21, 2010 at 3:26 pm
It's also worth noting that I have never handed over a project that wasn't paid for. I accept a deposit, do the work, demo it from a development server, accept payment, then deploy immediately. They can't steal from you if you never give them the opportunity.
April 21, 2010 at 3:40 pm
Very simply deny the work. The thought of shutting down somebody is tantalizing at times as is the extra cash if you thought he would pay.
However, history says you will probably not get paid. Furthermore, you would be in conflict of interest and possibly breach of contract.
Tell him to pay your boss and establish the contract with your boss.
Even go and ask your employer what he thinks of it.
Jason...AKA CirqueDeSQLeil
_______________________________________________
I have given a name to my pain...MCM SQL Server, MVP
SQL RNNR
Posting Performance Based Questions - Gail Shaw[/url]
Learn Extended Events
April 21, 2010 at 3:42 pm
Ninja's_RGR'us (4/21/2010)
Now the clients wants me to go back as a consultant to keep working on the projects. I refused since it would breach my relationship with my boss but he keeps asking... but I was thinking that I would then have access to shut down the system and force them to pay us. I've been playing with the pros and cons of each scenario and I would like your impressions on the matter.
1. The client doesn't deserve your help.
2. Chances are, you signed a paper with your employer and you would be either in breach of contract or breaking the laws behind the NDA/Covenant not to Compete that you may have signed.
3. It's unethical and if you go back without written permission from your former boss, your reputation will be trashed in elevators all over the country (it's a very small world).
4. If you go back to shut the system down under false (or even upfront) pretenses, YOU could spend some time washing bubba's socks in a rock quarry even if your boss sanctions it.
There's is only one right way to handle this... your boss has to take the client/company to court and resolve it there. I know it sucks but that's the only way (heh... more on the word "only" in just a minute) to either get paid or shut the system down for non-payment.
If anyone suggests something to you like starting a campaign against these lamers by telling other people what they've done without being asked about those lamers, be very careful... you could be sued for slander. Instead, I would remain as professional, ethical, and legal about the whole thing as possible. Money isn't the only thing to be lost by either side here.
--Jeff Moden
Change is inevitable... Change for the better is not.
April 21, 2010 at 4:11 pm
Steve Jones - Editor (4/21/2010)
I tend to agree with bitbucket. Hire a lawyer, decide what to do.I might also spread the word to other consulting companies in the area that you have had issues. Not necessarily trashing the client or complaining, but warn them that you did not receive payment.
Thanks all and everyone of you for your input
Steve, I think this is a topic worth exploring with an expert lawyer. I further think it would be a immense service to the community if you partnered up with a lawyer and do a interview (even better if in video). Since it would be published here I'm pretty sure you could get him/her to work for free in exchange for his/her time and sample contracts.
I'd love to hear the answers to these questions :
- What do we need to put in the contract to be protected?
- What do we need to do to be sure to be paid?
- Ok, I've screwed up, now what can I do?
- Sample contracts
- Sample forced shutdown procedures if it has to get there (if the project is to big to do in only 1 batch).
- Legal courses if you need to go to court, what to expect in $ and time needed to get money back
April 21, 2010 at 4:12 pm
jvanderberg (4/21/2010)
It's also worth noting that I have never handed over a project that wasn't paid for. I accept a deposit, do the work, demo it from a development server, accept payment, then deploy immediately. They can't steal from you if you never give them the opportunity.
Do you deploy only after the check clears?
April 21, 2010 at 4:13 pm
bitbucket-25253 (4/21/2010)
Your boss ,truly, has only one recourse. Hire a contract lawyer, and consult with that individual, and then decide how to proceed.
Yup I think this sums it up pretty well.
April 21, 2010 at 4:14 pm
CirquedeSQLeil (4/21/2010)
Very simply deny the work. The thought of shutting down somebody is tantalizing at times as is the extra cash if you thought he would pay.However, history says you will probably not get paid. Furthermore, you would be in conflict of interest and possibly breach of contract.
Tell him to pay your boss and establish the contract with your boss.
Even go and ask your employer what he thinks of it.
I've already done all those steps... The 1000$ retainer without paying my boss was acutally my boss' idea to see the real intention of the client.
April 21, 2010 at 4:23 pm
Jeff Moden (4/21/2010)
Ninja's_RGR'us (4/21/2010)
Now the clients wants me to go back as a consultant to keep working on the projects. I refused since it would breach my relationship with my boss but he keeps asking... but I was thinking that I would then have access to shut down the system and force them to pay us. I've been playing with the pros and cons of each scenario and I would like your impressions on the matter.1. The client doesn't deserve your help.
2. Chances are, you signed a paper with your employer and you would be either in breach of contract or breaking the laws behind the NDA/Covenant not to Compete that you may have signed.
3. It's unethical and if you go back without written permission from your former boss, your reputation will be trashed in elevators all over the country (it's a very small world).
4. If you go back to shut the system down under false (or even upfront) pretenses, YOU could spend some time washing bubba's socks in a rock quarry even if your boss sanctions it.
There's is only one right way to handle this... your boss has to take the client/company to court and resolve it there. I know it sucks but that's the only way (heh... more on the word "only" in just a minute) to either get paid or shut the system down for non-payment.
If anyone suggests something to you like starting a campaign against these lamers by telling other people what they've done without being asked about those lamers, be very careful... you could be sued for slander. Instead, I would remain as professional, ethical, and legal about the whole thing as possible. Money isn't the only thing to be lost by either side here.
1 - I'm aware of that. But on the other hand 100 nice people would lose their job if that system stopped working. Now even without that system failling it's likely to happen but that's another story.
2 - That non-compete expired in december 2009, but simply on a moral or just "don't bite the hand that feeds you", it just feels wrong. That's why I involved my boss from day 1.
3 - Yup, not interested.
4 - Still not very interesting :cool:.
be very careful... you could be sued for slander.
That's been a sticking point in my mind... we're apparently suckers #5 in the series of companies falling in that trap. At some point it just needs to stop. How can we protect on another if we can't talk about it? I agree that I shouldn't post that news in the front page of the newspaper, but there must be an in-between somewhere where we can help one another.
April 21, 2010 at 4:54 pm
Ninja's_RGR'us (4/21/2010)
The 1000$ retainer without paying my boss was acutally my boss' idea to see the real intention of the client.
Brutal - these people are quite aggressive then - I would pursue the legal course then.
Jason...AKA CirqueDeSQLeil
_______________________________________________
I have given a name to my pain...MCM SQL Server, MVP
SQL RNNR
Posting Performance Based Questions - Gail Shaw[/url]
Learn Extended Events
April 21, 2010 at 6:28 pm
CirquedeSQLeil (4/21/2010)
Ninja's_RGR'us (4/21/2010)
The 1000$ retainer without paying my boss was acutally my boss' idea to see the real intention of the client.Brutal - these people are quite aggressive then - I would pursue the legal course then.
Since' they're repeat offenders at this game - they would likely try to hold that over your head ("do this or we spill the beans about you screwing your former boss and taking money on the side").
----------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Your lack of planning does not constitute an emergency on my part...unless you're my manager...or a director and above...or a really loud-spoken end-user..All right - what was my emergency again?
April 21, 2010 at 6:44 pm
Really late payments and refusal to pay legitimate bills are one of the big warning signs of a company that is about to go bankrupt.
If they're out of money, a lawyer can't get what isn't there, so there may be nothing you can do.
Walk away.
April 22, 2010 at 4:29 am
Michael Valentine Jones (4/21/2010)
Really late payments and refusal to pay legitimate bills are one of the big warning signs of a company that is about to go bankrupt.If they're out of money, a lawyer can't get what isn't there, so there may be nothing you can do.
Walk away.
Yup, been there in another case, nothing you can do if they are going toward bankruptcy.
April 23, 2010 at 3:24 am
A good accountant and lawyer is your answer. One accountant friend once issued a winding-up order againt G.E.C. when they wouldn't pay one of his small clients. Payment was then almost instantaneous!
April 23, 2010 at 3:41 pm
Be careful here - the company you work for isn't shutting down the project - you are. And that would be after being hired by the offending company. That would make it a crime. The offending company wouldn't go after your boss - your boss didn't do anything - you did and that is who they would sue. Can you afford it?
-SQLBill
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