April 21, 2010 at 11:43 am
Long story short... I've been involved on a project where I had to build a printing application for a paint manufacturer. Like all projetcs it took longer than anticipated (wrong scope and problem with an external supplier which added at least 30 000$ to the bottom line).
Anyhow even if we didn't promise any deadlines and fixed $ amounts, the client stopped payments for the last parts of the project even if we delivered 100% to his satisfaction.
Now here's where it gets tricky. Me, as the employee I was fully paid for the project and my boss took the loss (he was in the red net for the whole project).
Since the client stopped paying all current and future projects were stopped.
Now the clients wants me to go back as a consultant to keep working on the projects. I refused since it would breach my relationship with my boss but he keeps asking... but I was thinking that I would then have access to shut down the system and force them to pay us. I've been playing with the pros and cons of each scenario and I would like your impressions on the matter.
April 21, 2010 at 11:47 am
First forcing a shutdown could be considered criminal, so be VERY careful with that.
I wouldn't provide one additional line of code or ANY support.
I would tell your boss that they are courting you.
I wouldn't do the work for them on the side because it would damage your relationship with your employer and very likely they are in violation of their contract. Those contracts usually have a no poaching clause. As well as I don't think I would trust them to actually pay me since they have already shown a propensity for NOT..
The whole situation would make me uncomfortable.
CEWII
April 21, 2010 at 12:00 pm
Tell them to pay your boss everything they owe him first and you want a $10,000 retainer before starting any work.
That should cut off any further discussion. If they go for it, your boss would have no reason to be unhappy about getting paid.
April 21, 2010 at 12:08 pm
I like that..
CEWII
April 21, 2010 at 12:23 pm
Michael Valentine Jones (4/21/2010)
Tell them to pay your boss everything they owe him first and you want a $10,000 retainer before starting any work.That should cut off any further discussion. If they go for it, your boss would have no reason to be unhappy about getting paid.
Excellent!
As right as it feels, going after them would be a huge mistake, even if you got away with it.
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April 21, 2010 at 12:27 pm
Michael Valentine Jones (4/21/2010)
Tell them to pay your boss everything they owe him first and you want a $10,000 retainer before starting any work.That should cut off any further discussion. If they go for it, your boss would have no reason to be unhappy about getting paid.
I already used that approach as my first "refusal". I knew they wouldn't pay so I asked for 1000$ upfront for a reinstall job (they moved our software on a new server and they screwed it up). I know this is a couple hours to reinstall and confirm the setup... so 10K might be a little much for that little project... from what I understand 1000$ is way too much. So it's obvious they don't care much about paying their suppliers.
I even tested the water (with my boss' consent) with 1000$ upfront with no payment to my boss and they still said no.
No the funny part is that without that new server, if the current one fails (which it did and they miraculously recovered the drive) the whole line of production stops and they can't ship their products anymore.
I also recently found out through my boss that we're the 5th consulting cie they do that to. Hence me not being too interested in working for them again.
April 21, 2010 at 12:33 pm
Elliott W (4/21/2010)
First forcing a shutdown could be considered criminal, so be VERY careful with that.I wouldn't provide one additional line of code or ANY support.
I would tell your boss that they are courting you.
I wouldn't do the work for them on the side because it would damage your relationship with your employer and very likely they are in violation of their contract. Those contracts usually have a no poaching clause. As well as I don't think I would trust them to actually pay me since they have already shown a propensity for NOT..
The whole situation would make me uncomfortable.
CEWII
My boss is already aware of the situation and I already told him that I would refuse all their offers (I won't turn down a 6 figure job, as a consultant, for maybe 1 (retainer) paycheck).
How would that be considered criminal to shut down the software?
We provided a service which they agree fulfills their needs 100%. And on the other they don't pay us so they are in breach of contract on their hand. If you stop paying for you car or your rent, you can be sure it's going to be taken away from you and there's nothing you can do about that other than paying what you owe.
I'm well aware, or imaginative, of the risks here of doing a forced shutdown. This would obviously end up in court with a couple 100k in lawers fees and most certainly tint our reputation as a consulting cie even tho we are entitled to some recourse in a situation like this.
What are your experiences with situations like this one?
April 21, 2010 at 12:39 pm
Ninja's_RGR'us (4/21/2010)
Michael Valentine Jones (4/21/2010)
Tell them to pay your boss everything they owe him first and you want a $10,000 retainer before starting any work.That should cut off any further discussion. If they go for it, your boss would have no reason to be unhappy about getting paid.
I already used that approach as my first "refusal". I knew they wouldn't pay so I asked for 1000$ upfront for a reinstall job (they moved our software on a new server and they screwed it up). I know this is a couple hours to reinstall and confirm the setup... so 10K might be a little much for that little project... from what I understand 1000$ is way too much. So it's obvious they don't care much about paying their suppliers.
I even tested the water (with my boss' consent) with 1000$ upfront with no payment to my boss and they still said no.
No the funny part is that without that new server, if the current one fails (which it did and they miraculously recovered the drive) the whole line of production stops and they can't ship their products anymore.
I also recently found out through my boss that we're the 5th consulting cie they do that to. Hence me not being too interested in working for them again.
They may be low on cash and about to go out of business if they can't even pay $1000 up front. Another good reason to stay away from that job.
April 21, 2010 at 12:45 pm
Micheal.
I don't know the whole story here, but I know that management changed hands at least 2 times in 15 months and that this is one of the reasons of this whole mess.
Cash may be an issue, but there's a big difference between "we ain't gonna pay you so f*** off" and "please can we make a deal and pay X way in a couple months". From what I hear this has been going on since July 2009.
April 21, 2010 at 1:18 pm
Ninja's_RGR'us (4/21/2010)
My boss is already aware of the situation and I already told him that I would refuse all their offers (I won't turn down a 6 figure job, as a consultant, for maybe 1 (retainer) paycheck).How would that be considered criminal to shut down the software?
We provided a service which they agree fulfills their needs 100%. And on the other they don't pay us so they are in breach of contract on their hand. If you stop paying for you car or your rent, you can be sure it's going to be taken away from you and there's nothing you can do about that other than paying what you owe.
I'm well aware, or imaginative, of the risks here of doing a forced shutdown. This would obviously end up in court with a couple 100k in lawers fees and most certainly tint our reputation as a consulting cie even tho we are entitled to some recourse in a situation like this.
What are your experiences with situations like this one?
If you disable the software intentionally, it could be could be considered hacking. People who trash up a system intentionally can still be charged even if they work for the company or are under contract. If all of a sudden the system stopped working it would be EXTREMELY suspicious that you shut it down. I have little doubt they could successfully file criminal charges, whether they could get a conviction is a question but that is after you have spent $20,000 on lawyers fees. Criminal is different from the civil remedies. If their system fails right now, the last thing they would do is drag you into court for it. If they did then they would get their hat AND coat handed to them and they would pay a significant amount of cash since there is no reason your lawyers wouldn't ask for the money that they already owe plus fees plus punitive damages. They didn't pay so they can't expect any support, EVEN if it puts them out of business.
The only way that you could get away with it is if your contract explicitly allowed for it. In that case you have what is called an affirmative defense and could simply claim to be following the contract. That protects you civilly and criminally..
CEWII
April 21, 2010 at 1:23 pm
Ninja's_RGR'us (4/21/2010)
Micheal.I don't know the whole story here, but I know that management changed hands at least 2 times in 15 months and that this is one of the reasons of this whole mess.
Cash may be an issue, but there's a big difference between "we ain't gonna pay you so f*** off" and "please can we make a deal and pay X way in a couple months". From what I hear this has been going on since July 2009.
You are correct. It sounds like the former.. If they were willing to make a deal for a payoff it would show a willingness to make it right. Are they members of the Better Business Bureau? You might take a swing at them that way..
This company sounds like they do this over and over, you get them 80-90% and then they stop paying.
CEWII
April 21, 2010 at 1:47 pm
Your boss ,truly, has only one recourse. Hire a contract lawyer, and consult with that individual, and then decide how to proceed.
April 21, 2010 at 2:06 pm
I tend to agree with bitbucket. Hire a lawyer, decide what to do.
I might also spread the word to other consulting companies in the area that you have had issues. Not necessarily trashing the client or complaining, but warn them that you did not receive payment.
April 21, 2010 at 2:21 pm
Before you get lawyers involved, make sure there is some paperwork supporting your position. At the minimum dunning letters/final demand including the statement that there will be no support nor warranty activites (but that's hopefully already documented in the contract itself). Even better (at least for the position of your company) would be something in writing from them actually asking you to continue the consulting job.
Under no circumstances whatsoever, shut down that software neither in case you decide to work for them as an independent consultant nor if you have to go back there sent by your boss!
To summarize: Get the paperwork to have some evidence and contact a lawyer.
April 21, 2010 at 2:24 pm
Grant Fritchey (4/21/2010)
Michael Valentine Jones (4/21/2010)
Tell them to pay your boss everything they owe him first and you want a $10,000 retainer before starting any work.That should cut off any further discussion. If they go for it, your boss would have no reason to be unhappy about getting paid.
Excellent!
As right as it feels, going after them would be a huge mistake, even if you got away with it.
One more thing to remember - if they did it to your boss, there's no compelling reason to believe they qwouldn't do the very same thing to you. This is not the kind of client you want to base breaking a relationship with your current employer on.
If it comes down to them not being able to work with your boss, have them clarify the situation with him, pay themselves up to current, AND let him know they'd like to contact you directly. In other words do right by him, you never can tell when you might need to go back and deal with him.
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Your lack of planning does not constitute an emergency on my part...unless you're my manager...or a director and above...or a really loud-spoken end-user..All right - what was my emergency again?
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