September 11, 2007 at 8:50 am
Johan,
Whether you are correct or not, it would be nice to acknowledge those lost.
I was hoping we're have more discussion on data centers and unexpected issues rather than anything else.
September 11, 2007 at 10:01 am
Newton's Law says buildings can't collapse??? Which law would that be?
September 11, 2007 at 10:38 am
File this under the "no such thing as top floor" category.
We had a disaster of sorts at my previous occupation. They hospital system I worked for had taken great pains to situate their multi-million dollar server room on the top floor, to avoid anything ugly like all of the liquid issues brought up here. It all worked great....until the 3-ton+ air conditioning unit on the roof above overloaded, blew up, and came crashing through the ceiling. Thankfully it "only" took out the 1/2 million dollar high speed printer below it and not the SAN or several hundred servers located just a few feet away.
On a good note - the reinforced raised flooring they had put into the server room prevented it from continuing on down through several more floors, and taking a bunch of healthcare workers and patients with it.
Just remember - there's no position of invulnerability. The thing everyone says "will never happen" is the one Murphy is going to inflict on ya...
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Your lack of planning does not constitute an emergency on my part...unless you're my manager...or a director and above...or a really loud-spoken end-user..All right - what was my emergency again?
September 11, 2007 at 10:50 am
I have laready done my moment of silence this morning.
Airplanes can fly all the way down to the ground, if not they could not land... Ground effect (float) occurs at only a distance half the height of the wingspan from the ground. The aircraft that hit the buildings where way higher than that. Go get some good books on flying to learn more about it. Or even better yet, go take some flying lessons and see for yourself.
10 minute intercepts rarely happens of civilian aircraft. I bet even today with hightened alert you would not see a 10 minute intercept unless you where getting inside the no fly zone around the president. 10 minutes would mean you would have F-16s and 15s flying in circles above every major city in the US all the time, which we did on Sept 12-20th or so in 2001, but do not do currently.
Explosives are not going to change gravity either... Building won't fall any faster (they might start to fall faster with explosives).
September 11, 2007 at 11:01 am
Well put, Steve. Let's take a moment to remember those who died, without politicizing their loss.
To all: This is a technical forum, not a political one. If you have strong opinions on 9/11 conspiracy theories (on either side of the fence), please consider taking your arguments to a more appropriate venue.
Tim Mitchell
TimMitchell.net | @tmitch.net | Tyleris.com
ETL Best Practices
September 11, 2007 at 11:09 am
Anders,
I said in that sentence the pentagon plane (Flight 77 Boeing 757), could not have flown that close to the ground (not the two which hit the towers), the hole in pentagon was at the ground floor, and the lawn is untouched. How could you explain that? Why were there no pieces found like landinggear, engines and so on. Why are there no wings or tail-marks in the facade of the pentagon? Its good however that you have some knowledge about airplanes, please take a look at
http://www.pilotsfor911truth.org/
Several airforce bases has fighter jets on alert around the clock. There would be in most cases 10 minutes or less interception. However in this case the "hijacked planes" were in the air for 30 minutes, the second plane for 45 minutes and that hitting the pentagon 1,5 hours (!!!) This was after the hijacking alerts. Wouldn't this be enough time for interception???
September 11, 2007 at 11:17 am
YES, I acknowledge all the lost lives as much as anybody. Lets not forget all dead americans who have died among the first responders on delayed basis breathing the very toxic air and how many of them are sick today? 10000? 20000?
What about more than 600.000 dead iraqis?
What about hundreds of thousands of disabled american troops because of the use of depleted uranium (DU) weapons? How many disformed new borned children is caused of this?
We have been lied into this war! The "war on terror" is a fake and 9-11 was in inside job. Dont believe in what I say, please go look for yourself.
Lets not forget this.
September 11, 2007 at 11:33 am
Funny - I could have sworn I was reading the SQLSERVERCENTRAL boards, not the TOO CUCKOO FOR COCOA PUFFS chat line....
Black hawks, roaming missile, WMD, the men in black on the Lawn near the book Repositority - all fascinating. Related to SQL Server? hmmm.....
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Your lack of planning does not constitute an emergency on my part...unless you're my manager...or a director and above...or a really loud-spoken end-user..All right - what was my emergency again?
September 11, 2007 at 11:42 am
Groudn effect is not a physical barrier, it only really applies at a shallow descent. And not finding large pieces not all that strange with an airplane hitting a hard imovable surface at high speed. Look up some accident investigations with fighter planes hitting water.
And no, planes do not sit ready to go immediately at most fighter bases unless there is a cause to. In Norway during the cold war (and I assume in the US at the same time) there was always a couple of F-104s sitting ready in Bodoe to go intercept USSR aircraft. But even so, it takes some time to get them in the air. And that assumes that chain of command is working. When somethig totaly unprecedented happens, there might not be someone to give the order to shoot. No fighter pilot I know would shoot or force down a commercial jet liner without an order from way up the chain of command (i.e. most likely the President).
These kind of theories abound every time something major happens. Best example for comparison is KAL007. It's just hard for some people to believe that the system failed in stopping them when in retrospect it should be obvious.
Depleted uranium would be more of a problem from the first gulf war (if there is a problem, which from what I can tell there is not) as more A-10s where used to take out tanks during that conflict.
I don't think it was a conspiracy. I do however believe that W has milked it for all it is worth afterwards, sometimes twisting the truth to serve his purposes (what politician doesn't?).
Last post on the subject. You wouldn't believe us if Osama told you in person he architected the attacks without help from shadowy organizations in the US.
September 11, 2007 at 12:12 pm
Anders,
Isn't hitting the groundfloor of the pentagon "shallow". The turbulence under wings and fuselage would have made the Boeing 757 to have crashed into the ground before hitting the pentagon, and the lawn is completely untouched.
Do you say the Boeing 757 vaporized? What about the indestructable engines? the indestructable landing-gears? Shouldnt they be found? Where did the wings go, since there are no marks of wings in the facade of the pentagon? Hani Hanjour could barely get a cessna of the ground, and we are supposed to believe he could control a Boaing 757? The official conspiracy theory is ridiculous.
There is Andrews airforce base and Langely airforcebase. They are 1-2 minutes away from the white house and the pentagon. That would be less than 10 minutes and definately enough time to intercept in 1,5 hours. Shoot-down order doesnt matter here, since Hani Hanjour and his plane wasnt even intercepted. They were 4 hijackers with boxcutters (at least one had to fly the plane) and more than 60 passengers. Dont you think these tiny arabs would have easily been overtaken by these more than 60 americans?
Depleted Uranium fact: about 350 ton of depleted uranium was used during first gulfwar, and now in this current war since march 2003, more than 4000 tons of depleted uranium has been used, so Anders is completely wrong on this point.
You dont think it was a conspiracy? A conspiracy is when two or more persons in secret plans to do something illegal. Thats from the word-book. This makes even the official story a conspiracy theory, doesnt it? Or have you heard otherwise? So we can compare the official conspiracy theory with alternative conspiracy theories, and see which one has the best evidence. So I wonder, what evidence support the official conspiracy theory?
September 11, 2007 at 12:27 pm
Sorry, I know I'm breaking the promise I made to myself not to weigh in on this conspiracy discussion, but I did do my moment of silence and I do think I need to make at least one comment here.
I recall seeing the video of American Airlines Flight 77 hitting the Pentagon, and the angle of descent was fairly steep if you project its line of flight backward (essentially it looks like someone aiming for the building and hitting a bit low), but that is only if you trust the video. Once you distrust the video (as I suspect you do), then all bets are off. Anyway, I'm no expert, but I don't see how the ground effect would matter if the plane started higher (100-200 feet up) and essentially plunged nose first into the ground.
Also, what happened to the passengers listed as being on the flight who were listed as dead? Did they never show up for the flight? Kidnapped before the scheduled flight and killed by the government? One of the dead was Barbara Olson, the wife of the prominent Bush solicitor general Ted Olson. How does the conspiracy explain the disappearance of these people, including such a prominent public figure?
I wonder if there is airline video of the plane boarding and taking off. Then the conspiracy would have to account for what happened to a large airplane full of people if it did not crash into the Pentagon as history records.
Look, it is good to be skeptical up to a point. But there has to be some balance between what might be conspiracy, what might be incompetence, and what might be coincidence. I just don't see the motive or coordination for the 9/11 conspiracy as described, just a wide-ranging rejection of anything labeled the official version. That is not to say that certain politicians have not exploited 9/11 for their own gain - but it does not therefore mean that they planned the event or actually wanted all of those people to die.
webrunner
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A SQL query walks into a bar and sees two tables. He walks up to them and asks, "Can I join you?"
Ref.: http://tkyte.blogspot.com/2009/02/sql-joke.html
September 11, 2007 at 12:44 pm
webrunner,
The very few frames that were released from a pentagon surveilance camera, shows some small object. Think for yourself, we know that Boeing 757 could not fly that close to the ground because of the "ground effect", and yet we see something that comes very close to the ground, and we also know that the lawn in front of the pentagon is untouched, and no pieces of an 757 are found. ... so it must have been something else.
I see you know a few things about Ted Olsen, which is correct. There is a very well written article about these "phone calls", which you can find here: "Could Barbara Olson have made those calls?"
http://pilotsfor911truth.org/amrarticle.html
I dont know anyone in the 911 Truth movement who can say for sure what happened to those people who were said to have been on those planes, until we have a real investigation, and not a comission run by Philip Zelikow, a Bush insider and an expert on creation of public myths (wikipedia.org).
September 11, 2007 at 1:11 pm
Johan -
really - how far off-topic do you need to go? There are millions of other places to discuss this kind of nonsense, some of which where this kind of stuff is actually on topic and welcome. Discuss it over wherever it's relevant - there is NO justification for perpetuating this nonsense here.
I'm actually amazed that the board moderators haven't unceremoniously dumped this whole topic and your account with it.
Please - let's focus on what this place is ACTUALLY about.
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Your lack of planning does not constitute an emergency on my part...unless you're my manager...or a director and above...or a really loud-spoken end-user..All right - what was my emergency again?
September 11, 2007 at 1:12 pm
"Three can be told a secret if one is deaf and one is dead."
To attribute all of the events of 9/11/2001 to a conspiracy would require hundreds, if not thousands, of people to be involved. The government can't stop itself from publishing classified and secret information on the web BY ITSELF. I think there are many unanswered questions, and I think the Bush administration has exploited it beyond any sense of decency, but I do not think there was one single, over-arching conspiracy aside from a maniacally-driven American-trained nutter in Afghanistan who got lucky once.
And I apologize for violating one of the primary rules of IRC: Do not feed the trolls.
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[font="Arial"]Knowledge is of two kinds. We know a subject ourselves or we know where we can find information upon it. --Samuel Johnson[/font]
September 11, 2007 at 1:28 pm
Matt Miller,
This discussion was about 9-11, no? Is discussions about the latest trend in Select-statements all you need? I have worked for more than 20 years with programming and databases. Now its about time to ask, where is all the work on databases going to lead?
With the Patriot Act and Homeland security bill etc, the police can wiretap anybody, can search anyones home without a court-order, they can arrest anybody for as long as they want without charges, they have secret prisons and so on. Read it for yourself, its scary stuff, let me tell you.
Now there is the new National ID card with RFID tags, that can be scanned at distance without you even knowing about it. And best of all, everything goes in to databases. Is this the country of freedom? ... so I really think this is about both databases and about 9-11 which this discussion is about.
... and to Wayne - have you red my earlier post? The official story is as much a conspiracy theory as any other story about 9-11, that some people conspired to do these crimes, am I wrong? I have red the word-book, havent you?
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