May 19, 2014 at 10:22 am
Doctor Who 2 (5/19/2014)
This is the second time, in this thread, that the idea of hiring a recruiter has come up. (It may have been you, Eric, that brought it up before, can't remember.) At first I thought it was a mistake. Now I realize it isn't. I've never heard of hiring a recruiter to help one find a job. How is that done?
What I'm specifcally talking about is more like a "career coach". You need to have to know who you are and what you want for a recruiter to be helpful.
http://blogs.wsj.com/laidoff/2009/05/28/is-a-career-coach-really-worth-the-investment/
http://management.fortune.cnn.com/2012/11/06/career-coaches-benefits/
There are a lot of companies, some of the best ones, that only hire through recruiters, so you'll need to work with them eventually, even if you initially start out just talking
with a career coach who can help you define where you are and where you want to be. Over the years, there have been handful of recruiters who have provided constructive feedback and advice, even if our relationship didn't lead to a job at the time. That's a handful out of the hundred or so that I've spoken with. You'll know the helpful ones when you meet them.
"Do not seek to follow in the footsteps of the wise. Instead, seek what they sought." - Matsuo Basho
May 20, 2014 at 3:03 am
Aeterna (5/19/2014)
call.copse (5/19/2014)
Personally, whilst I may be a grumpy old sod, I do favour making friends with my fellow employees and getting to know people's salaries after a drink or two. Yes, it goes against terms, and I think an 'I'll show you mine if you show me yours' is the only approach. This means obviously trying to avoid such discussions with the type of person who will blab about the discussion. However such data is generally helpful when negotiating - and I would never say 'Oh, X gets Y so I should get Z' - simply to understand where you are standing and whether it seems reasonable with respect to your relative contribution.On one occasion, the other DBA in the team left to become a contractor. Our job descriptions were identical, our skill sets very similar in terms of both range and experience. The vacancy for his job was advertised with a band that started at my salary and extended a further 10k, which was 6k higher than my supposed salary band. It took a lot of commentary/negotiation on my part to get another 2k on my salary at that point. The person they eventually recruited didn't have my skills/expertise. Needless to say, the whole episode informed my subsequent relationship with that company.
I hope that serves my point - that if the news is the company are treating you like a mug you want to know about it. If they estimate the market pays more but they will not pay you more (despite you having much specific knowledge) then obviously that is the time to go to the market.
May 20, 2014 at 3:17 am
call.copse (5/20/2014)
Aeterna (5/19/2014)
call.copse (5/19/2014)
Personally, whilst I may be a grumpy old sod, I do favour making friends with my fellow employees and getting to know people's salaries after a drink or two. Yes, it goes against terms, and I think an 'I'll show you mine if you show me yours' is the only approach. This means obviously trying to avoid such discussions with the type of person who will blab about the discussion. However such data is generally helpful when negotiating - and I would never say 'Oh, X gets Y so I should get Z' - simply to understand where you are standing and whether it seems reasonable with respect to your relative contribution.On one occasion, the other DBA in the team left to become a contractor. Our job descriptions were identical, our skill sets very similar in terms of both range and experience. The vacancy for his job was advertised with a band that started at my salary and extended a further 10k, which was 6k higher than my supposed salary band. It took a lot of commentary/negotiation on my part to get another 2k on my salary at that point. The person they eventually recruited didn't have my skills/expertise. Needless to say, the whole episode informed my subsequent relationship with that company.
I hope that serves my point - that if the news is the company are treating you like a mug you want to know about it. If they estimate the market pays more but they will not pay you more (despite you having much specific knowledge) then obviously that is the time to go to the market.
I omitted how I found out about the vacancy's salary range - an agency I'd dealt with before, and which I trusted, phoned me to let me know there was a vacancy in my area that ideally matched my CV and paid well... :hehe:
Mind you, the eventual exit interview was fun. 😛
May 20, 2014 at 7:34 pm
Eric M Russell (5/19/2014)
Doctor Who 2 (5/19/2014)
This is the second time, in this thread, that the idea of hiring a recruiter has come up. (It may have been you, Eric, that brought it up before, can't remember.) At first I thought it was a mistake. Now I realize it isn't. I've never heard of hiring a recruiter to help one find a job. How is that done?What I'm specifcally talking about is more like a "career coach". You need to have to know who you are and what you want for a recruiter to be helpful.
http://blogs.wsj.com/laidoff/2009/05/28/is-a-career-coach-really-worth-the-investment/
http://management.fortune.cnn.com/2012/11/06/career-coaches-benefits/
There are a lot of companies, some of the best ones, that only hire through recruiters, so you'll need to work with them eventually, even if you initially start out just talking
with a career coach who can help you define where you are and where you want to be. Over the years, there have been handful of recruiters who have provided constructive feedback and advice, even if our relationship didn't lead to a job at the time. That's a handful out of the hundred or so that I've spoken with. You'll know the helpful ones when you meet them.
Oh. Thank you for clarifying. Not too long ago I looked up career coaches in New Mexico, but there weren't any. Well, none in the technical field. There are some here for upper management, VP and CEO types.
Rod
May 20, 2014 at 7:35 pm
Steve Jones - SSC Editor (5/19/2014)
Doctor Who 2 (5/19/2014)
This is the second time, in this thread, that the idea of hiring a recruiter has come up. (It may have been you, Eric, that brought it up before, can't remember.) At first I thought it was a mistake. Now I realize it isn't. I've never heard of hiring a recruiter to help one find a job. How is that done?In the US, just look for companies that do placement in your area. No need to contract with them, and there isn't any hiring. they are paid by the company when they place someone.
Steve, do you mean someone like Robert Half or Sabio Systems?
Rod
May 20, 2014 at 7:59 pm
Doctor Who 2 (5/20/2014)
Steve Jones - SSC Editor (5/19/2014)
Doctor Who 2 (5/19/2014)
This is the second time, in this thread, that the idea of hiring a recruiter has come up. (It may have been you, Eric, that brought it up before, can't remember.) At first I thought it was a mistake. Now I realize it isn't. I've never heard of hiring a recruiter to help one find a job. How is that done?In the US, just look for companies that do placement in your area. No need to contract with them, and there isn't any hiring. they are paid by the company when they place someone.
Steve, do you mean someone like Robert Half or Sabio Systems?
Some of those can be a double-edged sword. The larger groups (like the Robert Half's out there) tend to treat you a bit more like a commodity, so you're more of a widget to place than someone with valuable, unique skills. It does depend on the specific office you deal with; both my best and my worse experience was with such a large placement firm.
What I will say from dealing with those large orgs - if you don't think the recruiter is looking for what YOU want - talk to the office/region mgr and have them reassign you to someone else. If you get another bad apple - change offices. Just don't put up with someone who continuously tries to send you to jobs with mismatched skills (the "throw stuff at the wall" strategy).
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Your lack of planning does not constitute an emergency on my part...unless you're my manager...or a director and above...or a really loud-spoken end-user..All right - what was my emergency again?
May 21, 2014 at 5:28 am
Hmm. What you said, Matt, gives me pause about Robert Half. Another one in this area is Sabio Systems; have you ever heard of them? If so, what's their reputation?
Another one we have here is Tek Systems (or TEK Systems, I'm not sure what the correct spelling is). On LinkedIn there's a current discussion about Tek Systems, and the guy who started it definitely makes it sound as though Tek Systems is unprofessional. I know I never hear from Tek Systems until about July or August, when they (and some other recruiters in my area) start calling my house almost non-stop. I live in the Albuquerque, NM area which has Kirkland Air Force Base. So what all of these recruiters are doing is trying to pad their portfolios with resumes to make bids on contracts coming up at the start of the next Federal fiscal year. Once October rolls around it all drops off to nothing.
Rod
May 21, 2014 at 7:15 am
I have not dealt with Sabio, so I cannot weigh in on them.
Again I didn't want to scare you away from the org per se. It's just that the larger groups have access to a LOT of "commodity" short-term placement type jobs (i.e. "find me an army to throw at my next seven sprints") where the body count is often more important than the skills or the fit. Again nothing wrong with those jobs either, but I prefer more stability, so I need someone who understands me and actually cares about finding a good fit to help me. They're out there, you just might need to look a bit harder to find that particular recruiter in that large firm.
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Your lack of planning does not constitute an emergency on my part...unless you're my manager...or a director and above...or a really loud-spoken end-user..All right - what was my emergency again?
May 21, 2014 at 7:24 am
Monthly SQL Server user group meetings are a good place for leads on permanent hire positions or contracts. If you're currently in the market for a new job and there isn't one in your local area, then it may be worth your while to drive an hour out of the way just to attend. We probably have recruiters at half of our meetings. They'll give a short introduction (along with pizza) before the regular presentations, and it's a good opportunity to speak with the recruiter face to face before or after the meeting.
"Do not seek to follow in the footsteps of the wise. Instead, seek what they sought." - Matsuo Basho
May 21, 2014 at 12:03 pm
Doctor Who 2 (5/21/2014)
Hmm. What you said, Matt, gives me pause about Robert Half. Another one in this area is Sabio Systems; have you ever heard of them? If so, what's their reputation?Another one we have here is Tek Systems (or TEK Systems, I'm not sure what the correct spelling is). On LinkedIn there's a current discussion about Tek Systems, and the guy who started it definitely makes it sound as though Tek Systems is unprofessional. I know I never hear from Tek Systems until about July or August, when they (and some other recruiters in my area) start calling my house almost non-stop. I live in the Albuquerque, NM area which has Kirkland Air Force Base. So what all of these recruiters are doing is trying to pad their portfolios with resumes to make bids on contracts coming up at the start of the next Federal fiscal year. Once October rolls around it all drops off to nothing.
Recruiters like Robert Half, Sabio and Tek want to make good matches, but some are stronger than others technically so you need to be clear and honest with them. Take some of their advice, maybe even take a few to lunch. They can only contact you about jobs they have, in ABQ it may take more time than other places but not everything is DOE/DOD contract. At the end of the day they are just people doing a hard job I wouldn't want to do.
New Mexico has a smaller talent pool and job pool than many other states so word travels fast, it's not worth it for them (or you) to burn someone for a quick buck. Robert Half also sponsors a few of the local users groups including a technology lunch and learn and PASS.
PASS Users Group:
There is a pretty active local users group scene, The local Pass chapter in Albuquerque meet the second friday of the month, usually at 11:30 and usually at New Horizons.
Get yourself on the mailing list, contact Malik Annabi and he'll get you all sorted out, as location does sometimes change (we had a pub quiz in march).
May 21, 2014 at 3:41 pm
Doctor Who 2 (5/20/2014)
Steve, do you mean someone like Robert Half or Sabio Systems?
Yep, someone like that, and smaller firms
May 21, 2014 at 4:02 pm
Aeterna (5/19/2014)
I'd also suggest going over the contract in detail and be prepared to reject any job offer if you don't like the contractual terms. Companies will then either refuse to renegotiate (in which case, your decision is right), will explain the terms, or will amend the terms following a renegotiation.It gives you a flavour of how they will deal with any future concerns you might have regarding salaries, working time, etc.
Very good point.
In addition to nitpicking the contract and asking for what you are worth in dollars and cents, I recommend negotiating the benefits. If you can negotiate and extra week or two of starting vacation, it could be a very worthwhile opportunity even if it is less money than you had hoped to get.
Jason...AKA CirqueDeSQLeil
_______________________________________________
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SQL RNNR
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May 21, 2014 at 4:17 pm
I'd like to add my 2 cent for what its worth. I was recently laid off from a job I held for 10+ years. I had a good relationship with my old boss and later found out why. My salary was the main factor. Turns out I made a lot more than the other dba's I worked with. With that said, I feel I earned every penny I got. I was very surprised to hear how much less other dba's are willing to take to do the same job. I am happy to report, I got a job within a month making the same salary but with better benefits.
I was always of the mind set that if I don't ask, I will not receive. Thru the years, I made it my mission to get yearly increase and then some. As the saying goes, the squeaky wheels gets the oil. "Squeak, Squeak"
so what are you worth? As much as you are willing to take to do the job. "Your salary may vary"!
May 21, 2014 at 6:48 pm
I have a friend from NY City and his saying is "The squeaky wheel gets greased". 😉 Heh... "Thing aboud it!" 😀
--Jeff Moden
Change is inevitable... Change for the better is not.
May 22, 2014 at 7:40 am
Jeff Moden (5/21/2014)
I have a friend from NY City and his saying is "The squeaky wheel gets greased". 😉 Heh... "Thing aboud it!" 😀
Yes, the cart doesn't revolve around the wheel, the wheel revolves around the cart. That squeaky wheel had better be a hard to replace wheel, and it better not allow the the cart to come to a stop while it's squeaking. 😉
"Do not seek to follow in the footsteps of the wise. Instead, seek what they sought." - Matsuo Basho
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