April 20, 2011 at 7:44 am
kevinw1970 (4/20/2011)
I don't know the licensing details of VS Express - to be honest.However, I also am using Microsoft BizSpark - which is an incredible incubator program WHICH allows a startup software/technology company to use basically ALL their software (including full blown Visual Studio) for a period of 3 years - so that brings up a great point, if you are actually an established company doing this - I would highly recommend checking out BizSpark!
This is how I could see a progression:
1. For just testing out a web-app concept, use Visual Studio Express (free).
2. If concept is moving to a true business, establish your business as a startup organization and get into the Microsoft BizSpark program - the all the software you need for your startup - for 3 years.
3. If after 3 years, you should have made it - re-invest your profits for the real licenses you need.
Basically - with Visual Studio Express and BizSpark, you should be able to get going with little to no software costs for the first 3 years.
Huh, I hadn't heard of BizSpark. I'll look into it, thanks!
--------------------------------------
When you encounter a problem, if the solution isn't readily evident go back to the start and check your assumptions.
--------------------------------------
It’s unpleasantly like being drunk.
What’s so unpleasant about being drunk?
You ask a glass of water. -- Douglas Adams
April 20, 2011 at 7:50 am
Oh Yeah, definitely check out BizSpark - it gives you an MSDN Subscription, and that entitles you to ALL their software - it's unbelievable what they provide, including all the versions of Windows Server/SQL Server/MS-Office/Windows 7/Visual Studio, etc. etc. etc...they don't leave much out with that program!
April 20, 2011 at 8:28 am
Stefan Krzywicki (4/19/2011)
What do you hate about VB? It has always been my language family of choice. I've never been able to stand JavaScript myself, but that stems from its early limitations on the web back in the mid-90s.
Does the phrase "DLL Hell mean" anything to you? (Yes, my hatred of VB dates back to the bad old days before VB.NET). How many mutually incompatible versions of the p-code interpreter and its accessories were there before VB release 5 (which, incidentally, didn't much help although at least the p-code interpreter could now be avoided)? And variant types, and the impossibility of doing real OO programming (or even having a decent level of structural abstraction for one's classes, with total inability to have any non-GUI classes before release 6), and the way VB (even more than C++) could make VBX controls fail in strange manners and break OLE/OCX/COM/COM+ so easily we wouldn't have believed it if someone had told us, we had to experience it. Plus the really awful basic-inherited syntax. In fact VB seemed part of the MS apparent loss of direction that gave it a reputation for releasing unreliable and buggy software (remember the "never install until SP1, and never install an even numbered SP" mantra?) when every OS after Windows 3.1.1 was a wreck until they finally managed to make something fairly reliable (compared to Win 95 or Win 98 or Win ME or NT 3.5 or NT 4.0) based on NT 4 with Win 2k (although even that was pretty awful, XP and Win 2003 were a great deal better), and Visual Studio and VB were all part of the miasma or incompetence that surrounded MS. I remember the bugs in the C++ compilers, they hurt too, but they were nothing to the pain of VB.
VB.NET may have improved things a bit in some areas, but I notice that it has in one important respect a worse type system than VB - it definitely isn't type-safe, while VB was.
Tom
April 20, 2011 at 8:39 am
Tom.Thomson (4/20/2011)
Stefan Krzywicki (4/19/2011)
What do you hate about VB? It has always been my language family of choice. I've never been able to stand JavaScript myself, but that stems from its early limitations on the web back in the mid-90s.Does the phrase "DLL Hell mean" anything to you? (Yes, my hatred of VB dates back to the bad old days before VB.NET). How many mutually incompatible versions of the p-code interpreter and its accessories were there before VB release 5 (which, incidentally, didn't much help although at least the p-code interpreter could now be avoided)? And variant types, and the impossibility of doing real OO programming (or even having a decent level of structural abstraction for one's classes, with total inability to have any non-GUI classes before release 6), and the way VB (even more than C++) could make VBX controls fail in strange manners and break OLE/OCX/COM/COM+ so easily we wouldn't have believed it if someone had told us, we had to experience it. Plus the really awful basic-inherited syntax. In fact VB seemed part of the MS apparent loss of direction that gave it a reputation for releasing unreliable and buggy software (remember the "never install until SP1, and never install an even numbered SP" mantra?) when every OS after Windows 3.1.1 was a wreck until they finally managed to make something fairly reliable (compared to Win 95 or Win 98 or Win ME or NT 3.5 or NT 4.0) based on NT 4 with Win 2k (although even that was pretty awful, XP and Win 2003 were a great deal better), and Visual Studio and VB were all part of the miasma or incompetence that surrounded MS. I remember the bugs in the C++ compilers, they hurt too, but they were nothing to the pain of VB.
VB.NET may have improved things a bit in some areas, but I notice that it has in one important respect a worse type system than VB - it definitely isn't type-safe, while VB was.
Heh, I started out by learning C++, but the first language I used outside a classroom was VB3. I never really had problems with it and had far more problems with JavaScript than I had with VBScript. I created COM and DCOM classes with various VBs and while I've seen people do incomprehensible things with VB, I've seen them do incomprehensible things with every language. I like VBs syntax better than Java or C#, to me it is more readable.
The one thing I'd like to have been different is for older VB to have truly been object-oriented instead of its own weird version of "object-oriented". It would have made learning true oo much easier.
--------------------------------------
When you encounter a problem, if the solution isn't readily evident go back to the start and check your assumptions.
--------------------------------------
It’s unpleasantly like being drunk.
What’s so unpleasant about being drunk?
You ask a glass of water. -- Douglas Adams
April 20, 2011 at 9:46 am
Stefan Krzywicki (4/20/2011)
Heh, I started out by learning C++, but the first language I used outside a classroom was VB3. I never really had problems with it and had far more problems with JavaScript than I had with VBScript. I created COM and DCOM classes with various VBs and while I've seen people do incomprehensible things with VB, I've seen them do incomprehensible things with every language. I like VBs syntax better than Java or C#, to me it is more readable.The one thing I'd like to have been different is for older VB to have truly been object-oriented instead of its own weird version of "object-oriented". It would have made learning true oo much easier.
I was much luckier than you - C was still years in the future and languages like C++ and VB were still decades in the future when I started programming, and there was a serious debate in progress about structured programming and data abstraction; in my first real job (previously I'd done the odd couple of months between Universities or during the long vacations, usually not computing) I got to spend 18 months doing research on language design and expressiveness before going back to university and teaching programmingfor a year. Then I worked in a whole variety of languages from assembly languages to high level languages with ADTs (include a couple I had a large part in inventing - we used to invent languages and implement them rather a lot in those days, because special purpose languages would often save work compared to writing in general purpose languages) and later worked in S3 (a variant of Algol 68), and in C (a terrible step backwards - it's almost as bad as assembly languages for expressiveness, and is type unsafe, pointer unsafe, and just about everything unsafe) and in functional languages (that included designing the extensions to Hope to make Hope+, the first serious industrial attempt to get a genuinely general purpose language based on declarative function declaration) and also in logic languages and in data handling languages (incuding SQL) and only got into C++ when I had been up to my neck in languages and language design concepts for about 20 years (and discovered VB in 1992 - 25 years after my first real IT job started).
I reckon you were corrupted from day 1 :laugh:, starting on C++ :crazy: and then going on to VB :crying: without ever seeing a decent language; but now you've seen SQL 😛 so you can see how much better a language can be. :-D:-D:-)
Tom
April 20, 2011 at 9:57 am
Tom.Thomson (4/20/2011)
Stefan Krzywicki (4/20/2011)
Heh, I started out by learning C++, but the first language I used outside a classroom was VB3. I never really had problems with it and had far more problems with JavaScript than I had with VBScript. I created COM and DCOM classes with various VBs and while I've seen people do incomprehensible things with VB, I've seen them do incomprehensible things with every language. I like VBs syntax better than Java or C#, to me it is more readable.The one thing I'd like to have been different is for older VB to have truly been object-oriented instead of its own weird version of "object-oriented". It would have made learning true oo much easier.
I was much luckier than you - C was still years in the future and languages like C++ and VB were still decades in the future when I started programming, and there was a serious debate in progress about structured programming and data abstraction; in my first real job (previously I'd done the odd couple of months between Universities or during the long vacations, usually not computing) I got to spend 18 months doing research on language design and expressiveness before going back to university and teaching programmingfor a year. Then I worked in a whole variety of languages from assembly languages to high level languages with ADTs (include a couple I had a large part in inventing - we used to invent languages and implement them rather a lot in those days, because special purpose languages would often save work compared to writing in general purpose languages) and later worked in S3 (a variant of Algol 68), and in C (a terrible step backwards - it's almost as bad as assembly languages for expressiveness, and is type unsafe, pointer unsafe, and just about everything unsafe) and in functional languages (that included designing the extensions to Hope to make Hope+, the first serious industrial attempt to get a genuinely general purpose language based on declarative function declaration) and also in logic languages and in data handling languages (incuding SQL) and only got into C++ when I had been up to my neck in languages and language design concepts for about 20 years (and discovered VB in 1992 - 25 years after my first real IT job started).
I reckon you were corrupted from day 1 :laugh:, starting on C++ :crazy: and then going on to VB :crying: without ever seeing a decent language; but now you've seen SQL 😛 so you can see how much better a language can be. :-D:-D:-)
Well, when I was a kid I programmed some "databases" on my old TRS-80 and learned Basic on the Atari 800, but I never really used Basic for anything and the databases were just to keep track of my book and comic collections. I also helped "debug" some COBOL by running through the green-line paper and code with the programmer who was on his car-phone, but that hardly counts. I took PASCAL and Modula2 in college and hated it so much I decided I'd never work in programming. : -)
--------------------------------------
When you encounter a problem, if the solution isn't readily evident go back to the start and check your assumptions.
--------------------------------------
It’s unpleasantly like being drunk.
What’s so unpleasant about being drunk?
You ask a glass of water. -- Douglas Adams
April 21, 2011 at 1:47 am
Stefan Krzywicki (4/20/2011)
While you can compile with VS Express, doesn't the licensing require that you buy the full version if you release anything/make it public?
No.
http://www.microsoft.com/express/Support/Support-faq.aspx
Check out "Can I use Express Editions for commercial use?" partway down.
IMO, what Microsoft are doing with the Express editions is (a) trying to get more developers producing stuff for Windows (and specifically .NET) rather than Linux or whatever, and (b) hoping that after you've been using them for a while you find the limitations of the free product severe enough that you choose to upgrade to the full version. Pretty much the same idea as for SQL Server Express, in other words!
April 21, 2011 at 7:17 am
paul.knibbs (4/21/2011)
Stefan Krzywicki (4/20/2011)
While you can compile with VS Express, doesn't the licensing require that you buy the full version if you release anything/make it public?
No.
http://www.microsoft.com/express/Support/Support-faq.aspx
Check out "Can I use Express Editions for commercial use?" partway down.
IMO, what Microsoft are doing with the Express editions is (a) trying to get more developers producing stuff for Windows (and specifically .NET) rather than Linux or whatever, and (b) hoping that after you've been using them for a while you find the limitations of the free product severe enough that you choose to upgrade to the full version. Pretty much the same idea as for SQL Server Express, in other words!
Yeah, I wish they'd do the same with Visual Studio that they do with SQL Server Developer edition. A $50 copy that is the full enterprise version that you just can't use for production.
--------------------------------------
When you encounter a problem, if the solution isn't readily evident go back to the start and check your assumptions.
--------------------------------------
It’s unpleasantly like being drunk.
What’s so unpleasant about being drunk?
You ask a glass of water. -- Douglas Adams
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