January 24, 2014 at 8:58 pm
Greetings all, I posted a comment in another thread but thought that starting a new topic may be appropriate.
Just a question for the veterans out there coming from someone that is young, relatively new to SQL, and wants to get their feet wet with real life SQL experience. Are there opportunities to volunteer in the SQL community on site(at a company), or virtually? If so how? I believe this is also called an internship, which I'm totally fine with however I currently hold a 9-5 job and would be strained on the time i could put in to interning...
I went ahead tonight and registered in our local user group here in chicago which I find very cool, but I keep striving for more exposure to SQL other than the books/online courses/forums that I'm currently digesting.
Secondly, I noticed that there is a SQL Saturday event in Madiscon, WI coming up in March or April, and another in Chicago. Are these worth attending, or am I going to be completely over my head, not know anyone, and feel foolish?
Any guidance would be greatly appreciated!
January 24, 2014 at 11:48 pm
SQL Saturday? It's a bargain, so absolutely go! You may not understand it all, but go to beginner lectures (I went to the one in Nashville last week, and it was great!). Of course, the more you know, the more you stand to get out of an event like that, but you have to start somewhere.
Can't really answer the other question, as I'm in somewhat of the same boat, but I do have a couple of certifications... not that they mean anything. According to Kevin Kline, the only SQL Server cert that means anything is the MCM, and that's been discontinued.
January 25, 2014 at 8:18 am
rho_pooka (1/24/2014)
Greetings all, I posted a comment in another thread but thought that starting a new topic may be appropriate.Just a question for the veterans out there coming from someone that is young, relatively new to SQL, and wants to get their feet wet with real life SQL experience. Are there opportunities to volunteer in the SQL community on site(at a company), or virtually? If so how? I believe this is also called an internship, which I'm totally fine with however I currently hold a 9-5 job and would be strained on the time i could put in to interning...
I went ahead tonight and registered in our local user group here in chicago which I find very cool, but I keep striving for more exposure to SQL other than the books/online courses/forums that I'm currently digesting.
Secondly, I noticed that there is a SQL Saturday event in Madiscon, WI coming up in March or April, and another in Chicago. Are these worth attending, or am I going to be completely over my head, not know anyone, and feel foolish?
Any guidance would be greatly appreciated!
The only problem with "volunteering" is that there's normally not a "senior" to work with to learn things from. The problem with "internships" is that they normally don't take the time to teach you and not everyone in the business is actually good at it (teaching or SQLServer). I don't mean that to sound mean but it's a cold, hard fact with proof in these and other forums.
If you want some real life problems to work on, buy yourself a copy of SQLServer Developer Edition (normally somewhere between $45 and $60 USD including shipping depending on where you buy it) which is identical to the SQLServer Entrprise Edition but with special licensing and you don't need to install it on a Windows Server. Then, start answering questions on these forums. You don't necessarily have to post answers at first. You'll find out who the "heavy hitters" are and the things that you'll learn from them will be absolutely remarkable. Also read the articles and the discussions that follow. There is frequently more and sometimes better information available in the discussions on the "Join the Discussion" link of articles. And, if someone posts a link to something else, take the time to at least look at it.
Not everything that you'll find on these or other forums is the right way to do things and that's why it's important to learn to recognize the "heavy hitters'. They're normally the ones that either ask for or create readily consumable test data and post documented code along with explanations.
If you need to ask a question on how to do something, don't be afraid. Just do it right so you can get the best help possible. See how to post code and performance problem questions by taking some time to study the two links I have in my signature line below under "Helpful Links".
As for SQL Saturday's, I have just one word... GO. And don't let the rating of a session scare you away. If something sounds interesting and even if it's labeled as "Advanced", just go. Even if it's over your head, you'll start to learn terminology and techniques and methods that you should study to become an SQLServer "Ninja". And always have an alternate session picked out. None of the people doing the presentations will be offended by you walking out if the session doesn't turn out to be what you thought and none of them will ever be offended by a late arrival at the alternate session.
--Jeff Moden
Change is inevitable... Change for the better is not.
January 25, 2014 at 8:30 am
Thank you for advice Jeff Moden! I currently am working with SQL Server Express, but I only have it on one machine, and have been working through queries that I have found on these forums, and various other sites/books. I have also started a blog to document my thoughts and progress that I'm making. The blog is mainly for myself as a diary of sorts, perhaps it can turn into something more in a year or two down the road…
Thanks again for solid advice!
-Ben
January 25, 2014 at 8:48 am
Thanks for the feedback, Ben. To be sure, I'm not actually sour on volunteering. It's a great way to help the community even if you're green but will take the time to properly research a problem (and, you can always ask pointed questions on these forums). It also looks good on a resume if you keep a log of services rendered.
I am pretty sour on internships for the reasons stated and the fact that a lot of places use interns as the proverbial "coffee runners". That, not withstanding, there are good internships to be had but they're hard to find. Basically, you have to interview THEM.
--Jeff Moden
Change is inevitable... Change for the better is not.
January 25, 2014 at 12:06 pm
I appreciate your honesty about internships, they are very hit or miss. I've ordered the SS developer version this morning from Amazon, it'll be fun to see what is different between it and express. I'm guessing there are ample youtube videos and articles to showcase the feature in the developer version.
Take care, again, thank you for the guidance.
-Ben
January 25, 2014 at 1:11 pm
Just wondering - since I'm not absolutely new to SQL Server (I have a couple of those Microsoft pieces of paper) but lack paid experience in SQL Server, what would be the best way into that? I used to do a lot of work with SQL Server's runt baby brother, Access (and get paid for it).
So I'm somewhat trapped in the "Can't get a job without experience, can't get experience without a job".
Options as I see them:
- start in help desk or similar and volunteer.
- start a blog in WordPress (I'm more interested in databases than web dev) and write about what I'm learning... Most people will ignore it and that's fine. But I could post code samples etc.
- volunteer with PASS/local SSUG (would help me get to know more people.)
Any other ideas? The reason I didn't add "volunteer to do SQL Server work" for someone is usually that a company's data that's secured in SQL server is usually one of their most important assets, and you don't just let some noob mess around with it. That would be pure insanity.
So where do you start?
Thanks for any feedback/ideas!
Pieter
January 25, 2014 at 1:33 pm
Pieter, as I'm faced with a similar circumstance I've elected to do the things that you had mentioned, starting a blog, being active in the forums, and have gotten in touch with a local user group. We will see what comes of all of it...
I'm interested to hear the versed professional's advice for you.
January 25, 2014 at 2:59 pm
I'm going to talk to Kevin Kline if I can track him down. (@KEKline on Twitter, I think.) He's a serious smarty (SQL Server MVP), so his advice should be good. He's in the local SQL Server User Group (we're obscenely fortunate - in addition to Kevin, Louis Davidson and Joe Webb are here, and then there are a ton of really good SQL folks on top of that. So a typical monthly meeting has about 50-70 attendees.
Go to those if you can. Ours have several recruiters, which can sometimes be helpful (even if they can't get you a job). One told me a while back (after telling me up front that he could not get me a job) that I should go the support route, and basically work my way into SQL Server that way.
January 25, 2014 at 4:16 pm
If you're trying to get an actual job, then there are a couple of excellent routes to take.
Believe it or not, SQL Saturdays are one of the best places to network. Take plenty of copies of your resume with you. If you do have a blog site or a forum that you regularly participate in, make sure you include that in the resume for people to lookup.
The Local PASS chapter is an excellent place to network, as well. Don't be afraid to talk with the Chapter President and have him include a short section at the beginning of the meeting for those that either have jobs to offer or those looking for jobs. Again, copies of your resume should always be available on the spot. Yes, they can be electronic and you can email them to folks right at the Chapter meeting if you are at a place where you can get a connection and you remembered to take your computer with you.
Also, spend an hour to either sit down and design a simple business card with the area of SQL Server that you'd like to work with on it (as well as your contact info, of course), or spend a sawbuck or two to have someone print up a hundred.
While some people don't care for them, I stay in constant contact with good recruiters even though I'm not currently looking for a job. Of course, I don't even talk with the bad ones anymore. You'll know who the good ones are because you should actually take the time to interview the ones you find and ask them for references. 😉 The good ones will have no problem with that at all.
Don't be like the store that opened without hanging up a sign. Advertise yourself. Like Steve Jones says, "Develop your own branding". If you ever get to an SQL Saturday where he's teaching his "branding" session, I strongly recommend you go to it. Some of it will seem obvious but take good notes because it isn't obvious until you've heard it. 😉
--Jeff Moden
Change is inevitable... Change for the better is not.
January 26, 2014 at 1:41 am
"Believe it or not, SQL Saturdays are one of the best places to network."
Actually, there were a bunch of recruiter types there last week (#272). Someone actually e-mailed me today about a job here. The "qualifying question" (only one???) was interesting...
January 26, 2014 at 11:42 am
pietlinden (1/26/2014)
"Believe it or not, SQL Saturdays are one of the best places to network."Actually, there were a bunch of recruiter types there last week (#272). Someone actually e-mailed me today about a job here. The "qualifying question" (only one???) was interesting...
Ok, so what was that question?
--Jeff Moden
Change is inevitable... Change for the better is not.
January 26, 2014 at 1:40 pm
It's a health care company, so they do a lot of data importing, I assume.
The client stated that the candidate must understand Identity in SQL. They need to know what it is and how to retrieve it after the data is inserted into a table. They’re answer can’t be, “I run a select after inserting the data”
@@IDENTITY.
Was almost a stupid question. Well, I guess it shows how little I know, because I had to read the documentation. (Man, they cram a LOT of info under one little key on my keyboard!!! Are the rest of the keys as full of info as F1?)
(You can turn SET IDENTITY INSERT ON/OFF to allow inserting values into an IDENTITY column... so I assume they're importing parent/child records into existing tables.)
I guess now I have to see if I can figure out how to use it with BULK INSERT and all those . I would assume they're either using SSIS (which I know you hate), or BULKINSERT... I saw a few articles, maybe I'll have to read up here and maybe watch a video or two...
To me, it just seemed weird that that was their only question... Seems like they must do a fair amount of SSIS or something and call BULKINSERT or whatever inside their for each loop or something.
OH, and then there are the related commands: SCOPE_IDENTITY() and IDENT_CURRENT().... hmm... won't be getting an interview for that job!
January 26, 2014 at 3:15 pm
pietlinden (1/26/2014)
It's a health care company, so they do a lot of data importing, I assume.The client stated that the candidate must understand Identity in SQL. They need to know what it is and how to retrieve it after the data is inserted into a table. They’re answer can’t be, “I run a select after inserting the data”
@@IDENTITY.
Was almost a stupid question. Well, I guess it shows how little I know, because I had to read the documentation. (Man, they cram a LOT of info under one little key on my keyboard!!! Are the rest of the keys as full of info as F1?)
(You can turn SET IDENTITY INSERT ON/OFF to allow inserting values into an IDENTITY column... so I assume they're importing parent/child records into existing tables.)
I guess now I have to see if I can figure out how to use it with BULK INSERT and all those . I would assume they're either using SSIS (which I know you hate), or BULKINSERT... I saw a few articles, maybe I'll have to read up here and maybe watch a video or two...
To me, it just seemed weird that that was their only question... Seems like they must do a fair amount of SSIS or something and call BULKINSERT or whatever inside their for each loop or something.
OH, and then there are the related commands: SCOPE_IDENTITY() and IDENT_CURRENT().... hmm... won't be getting an interview for that job!
I was going to say that responding with @@IDENTITY probably won't get you the job because of the huge problems it caused when used against a table that has triggers on it. SCOPE_IDENTITY() would be the preferred method for a singleton insert and the OUTPUT clause in the INSERT or the use of the INSERTED table in a trigger would likely be the best for multi-row set inserts.
BWAAA-HAAA... shifting gears a bit and just to clear the air on certain subjects, I don't actually hate SSIS. Neither do I hate Cursors, While Loops, Recursive CTEs, Triangular Joins, Covering Indexes, SQLCLR, Powershell, Functions, Views, or dozens of other things in SQL Server (although I will always have a deep rooted and devoted hatred for XML :-D). What I do hate is what many people (not ALL but a seeming majority) have done with those things because they don't actually know enough about T-SQL/SQL Server and they end up using those other tools inappropriately. Even then, they sometimes end up botching the job with the tool they know and have chosen to use and that makes it even worse, in my eyes.
--Jeff Moden
Change is inevitable... Change for the better is not.
January 26, 2014 at 5:43 pm
Never thought I was qualified for it anyway. =)
After coming up with one answer, I looked around at all the other options, and that one is probably the worst. CHECK_IDENT() and the others SCOPE_IDENTITY() would be better. I guess I have to come up with some ways of using these on smallish datasets so I can see what happens when I mess up. It was a pretty vague question, though. (Maybe I'm just showing my ignorance... it's amazing what you don't learn if you study for an exam instead of learning to do a job.)
Like Kevin Kline said "All the SQL Server certs, except MCM, aren't worth the paper they're printed on." No wonder they got rewritten...
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