February 17, 2012 at 9:54 am
Brent Ozar (2/17/2012)
TravisDBA (2/17/2012)
Ok, Brent you win. But I will close by saying that both you and Robert, with the upmost due respect to both of you, have a vested interest in this topic, so your objectiveity in this matter is a little tilted IMHO. 😀Can you elaborate a little more on why I would have a vested interest in singing the praises of the MCM? Why I would want more people to get a rare certificate that I hold, and the rareness of which helps me earn a great living? Keep in mind that I don't sell any MCM training whatsoever, and I don't make a dime off anybody getting the certificate.
Because you've already stated that the MCM you have has high value to you. That's the definition of a vested interest. You make more than a dime off of someone having it, because it's part of your marketing of you.
Your statement about not wanting competitors also indicates a vested interest in there not being a shortcut to getting it, because a brain dump would allow for more competition, per your own assertion. That's another definite vested interest.
But that doesn't prove unethical/dishonest judgement on the thing. That's an unfair accusation by Travis.
His claim that there are potentially brain dumps out there isn't in the unicorns category. Claiming it is, is disinguous on your part. Not comparable arguments. You're using reductio ad absurdem, which is just another fallacy.
The claim made earlier that there do not seem to be readily available, effective brain dumps, is an honest one. Claiming that there are none, and that it's impossible for there to ever be one, is not. Travis' claim that they're all over the place is mistaken, and I think had it been pointed out that way without being deliberately insulting, he probably would have bowed down.
Instead, impossible claims were made, he was attacked, and rampant illogic was used to create an atmosphere of hostility. You helped create an unnecesary conflict, and are still fanning the flame war on it.
I have too much respect for you and others in this discussion to think your claims are motivated nefariously in any way. I think he pushed a button that matters to you (you have a vested interest in the MCM being a valid cert, you've said so yourself), and you responded the way most people will in that kind of situation.
If you want advice on the matter, I suggest realizing that claims about unicorns and claims about data being available online aren't in the same category, realize that nobody is attacking you, and moderate your claims so they are logically valid. You pretty much did the last in your post about why you believe they don't exist, but express it "I do not believe there are valid MCM brain-dumps available," or, "I have seen evidence that indicates most if not all of the offers for these are false", not as "there are none and you're a bad person for claiming there are".
- Gus "GSquared", RSVP, OODA, MAP, NMVP, FAQ, SAT, SQL, DNA, RNA, UOI, IOU, AM, PM, AD, BC, BCE, USA, UN, CF, ROFL, LOL, ETC
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February 17, 2012 at 9:56 am
Brent Ozar (2/17/2012)
TravisDBA (2/17/2012)
I don't want to argue back and forth with you Brent. Like I said, you win. Have a great day. 😀Of course you don't. You just want to lob insults at products and people, but when it comes time to defend your baseless accusations, off you go.
Have a really crappy day.
Pot, meet Kettle.
Travis was insulted first in this discussion. He's defending. He went overboard on it, possibly, but the first attacks were directed at him, not by him. Re-read the thread history if you think otherwise.
- Gus "GSquared", RSVP, OODA, MAP, NMVP, FAQ, SAT, SQL, DNA, RNA, UOI, IOU, AM, PM, AD, BC, BCE, USA, UN, CF, ROFL, LOL, ETC
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February 17, 2012 at 10:17 am
tony.turner (2/12/2012)
MCM is not really open to us in the third-world, where I gather a fair portion of your readership comes from
Why is that? Is it because of a lack of testing facilities? Lack of qualified training? Only being available in English? I can see all of these things being contributing or leading factors. I would love to be able to make it available to everyone everywhere. Sadly, it's just not possible.
tony.turner (2/12/2012)
Even were it to be available, the price (after currency conversion) relative to salary or contracting rates would make it way unattractive. Any potential increase in salary or rate would need to be written off over way too long a period
Yes, I've heard that from others as well. I had a conversaton recently with a DBA in Greece where the price for both exams is 10% of the annual income for a DBA and companies will not pay for it. Unfortunately, that's not a problem that I am in a position to fix.
tony.turner (2/12/2012)
If I look down your list of MCMs, it is mainly big corporates, or Microsoft itself. Wake me up again once it becomes viable for people in their personal capacity; I could just become interested if I am still young enough
Yes, big corporations, internal Microsoft staff, and consultants are the vast majority of current MCMs. I don't think money is the reason for that. I think it is because being successful as an MCM requres have broad reaching experiences and those are the places where you are likely to get the broad range of problems in enterprise environements. Someone who works for 10 years in a small company with a few servers and few applications is not going to have the same level of experiences as someone who work 4 or 5 years as a consultant with very large environments supporting a large number of applications.
Not all experience is equal.
Likewise, those are the places that are most likely to need an MCM on staff. A small company with a limited environment is not going to need an MCM. So not only are the big corporations and consultants creating the most MCMs, they are also hiring the most existing MCMs.
February 17, 2012 at 10:19 am
TravisDBA (2/13/2012)
Perhaps, but in the US it isn't large companies that have all the MCMs.
They have most of them though. Of the 47 current MCAs and MCMs in SQL Server in the US and Canada that are listed on their public directory site, 33 of them are Microsoft employees alone and I highly doubt they are paying the same prices for the MCM and MCA certifications everyone else is paying. 😀
You make a good point here, and you are correct. I'll be happy to request the same deal for any company that signs a committment to send at least 20 people through the MCM program every year. 🙂
February 17, 2012 at 10:26 am
Yeah, for people who work in the right environments, or who want to, an MCM cert almost certainly pays for itself pretty readily.
Same for some of the more difficult college degrees, or any other form of education like that.
- Gus "GSquared", RSVP, OODA, MAP, NMVP, FAQ, SAT, SQL, DNA, RNA, UOI, IOU, AM, PM, AD, BC, BCE, USA, UN, CF, ROFL, LOL, ETC
Property of The Thread
"Nobody knows the age of the human race, but everyone agrees it's old enough to know better." - Anon
February 17, 2012 at 10:27 am
Brent Ozar (2/13/2012)
Within a month of getting the MCM, I had new consulting clients that were literally asking, "How much money will it take to get you onsite?" I quit Quest and paid them back for the MCM personally, out of my savings, and made it all back within a few weeks.
Another good example - in my rotation, another DBA paid for it completely out of his own pocket. He was totally frustrated with his day job as a DBA, and he wanted a better opportunity. Shortly after getting his MCM, Microsoft hired him. When he tired of that a few months later, he went to work for a private company making *killer* money and got an ownership percentage of the company.
Another good story from our rotation (Brent and I were in the same rotation ... and I'm still bitter that he finished every test before me 😛 ) was a consultant who was doing both SharePoint and SQL consulting through a consulting company. He did more SharePoint consulting that SQL consulting but he didn't want to do SharePoint consulting. He did the MCM because he though it ight help him get more SQL clients.
After getting his MCM, the demand for him for SQL consulting was so great that he stopped doing SharePoint consulting completely. He was able to focus 100% on SQL Server and at a higher rate than he got before. He eventually left the consulting company and went into business for himself.
February 17, 2012 at 10:29 am
Jeff Moden (2/13/2012)
Everyone that I hire has to pass the same interview. Well, not entirely true. I'm actually a bit tougher on people who have certs because they're "certified to know something".
I agree completely. If you are certified, be prepared to prove you earned it.
February 17, 2012 at 11:04 am
Robert Davis (2/17/2012)
Jeff Moden (2/13/2012)
Everyone that I hire has to pass the same interview. Well, not entirely true. I'm actually a bit tougher on people who have certs because they're "certified to know something".I agree completely. If you are certified, be prepared to prove you earned it.
Taking another look at this bit, it actually raises a bit of a conundrum for me.
I don't have any certs (in this field anyway; have tons in other areas of endeavor), and I'd hate to think someone would coddle me in an interview because of that. Either I can do the job or I can't, and the interview should be aimed at that.
But, at the same time, I agree with the idea that a person with certs on their resume should be better prepared to defend them than a person without. If I were interviewing someone with years of SQL DBA experience, and I asked about some slightly advanced feature, and he said, "I've read about it, and tried it out for my own curiosity, but never had to do it for real", and then missed a detail question or two, I'd forgive that more than a person with serious certs on the subject who said, pretty much the same thing.
So I'm stuck wanting myself to be held to a higher standard than I'd hold others to. Hypocritical? Not sure. Definitely a violation of "do unto other as you would have them do unto you".
- Gus "GSquared", RSVP, OODA, MAP, NMVP, FAQ, SAT, SQL, DNA, RNA, UOI, IOU, AM, PM, AD, BC, BCE, USA, UN, CF, ROFL, LOL, ETC
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February 17, 2012 at 11:33 am
I was thinking more along the lines of someone with certifications but not a lot of experience. Someone with a lot of experience and no certifications would also get an "opportunity" to prove how much they know.
This reminds me of a discussion I saw on LinkedIn. Someone had just graduated with a degree in Database Administration and wanted advice on how to find her first job. One person told her that a 4 year degree is equivalent to 5 (I think it said 5, may have been less) year's experience and she should list that she has that much experience on her resume to get her int eh door.
I recommeded that she be completely honest. Don't claim years in college as years of experience because I would interview her very differently if she claimed to have experience. If she isn't honest in her resume, it ill be found out in the interview and she would likely not get a job she might have gotten otherwise.
February 20, 2012 at 6:39 am
Robert Davis (2/17/2012)
I was thinking more along the lines of someone with certifications but not a lot of experience. Someone with a lot of experience and no certifications would also get an "opportunity" to prove how much they know.This reminds me of a discussion I saw on LinkedIn. Someone had just graduated with a degree in Database Administration and wanted advice on how to find her first job. One person told her that a 4 year degree is equivalent to 5 (I think it said 5, may have been less) year's experience and she should list that she has that much experience on her resume to get her int eh door.
I recommeded that she be completely honest. Don't claim years in college as years of experience because I would interview her very differently if she claimed to have experience. If she isn't honest in her resume, it ill be found out in the interview and she would likely not get a job she might have gotten otherwise.
Makes sense.
I've pointed out to a lot of people that job ads often will say, "X education or equivalent experience", but they never say, "X experience or equivalent education". There is a difference between the two, as you mention.
- Gus "GSquared", RSVP, OODA, MAP, NMVP, FAQ, SAT, SQL, DNA, RNA, UOI, IOU, AM, PM, AD, BC, BCE, USA, UN, CF, ROFL, LOL, ETC
Property of The Thread
"Nobody knows the age of the human race, but everyone agrees it's old enough to know better." - Anon
February 20, 2012 at 6:40 am
Brent, by way of possible appology, I discovered that Travis has a tendency to annoy/offend people, based on participation in other threads. I may have overdone my reactions to your discussion with him, not realizing that.
- Gus "GSquared", RSVP, OODA, MAP, NMVP, FAQ, SAT, SQL, DNA, RNA, UOI, IOU, AM, PM, AD, BC, BCE, USA, UN, CF, ROFL, LOL, ETC
Property of The Thread
"Nobody knows the age of the human race, but everyone agrees it's old enough to know better." - Anon
February 20, 2012 at 6:43 am
Gsquared - no worries, no apology necessary. Guys like that break communities apart by getting people all riled up on both sides. (sigh)
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