October 19, 2012 at 12:15 am
Comments posted to this topic are about the item Unprofessional Employers
October 19, 2012 at 1:31 am
CFO "what happens if we pay for training and they leave"?
CTO "what happens if we don't pay and they stay"?
October 19, 2012 at 5:36 am
I think Mark Rendle is basically right and Uncle Bob did take things a bit far:
"In fact, you go out of your way to make it hard for them to learn, by believing in 100% “utilisation” which actually forces people to work 9 hours a day so they can minutely account for the 8 you pay them for, and means they’re utterly banjaxed by the time they get home and can barely shift themselves off the sofa."
I get home (around a 25 mile round trip, cycled) bathe the kids or other activity, cook some supper - after that I've really got nothing left in the tank after a day of work. I can read up a little bit but actual development of code - forget it. It's a little crappy to leave all 'improvement' to young guys without families (which is how it ends up) as they are not necessarily the ones with the best approach.
Fortunatley my employer gives us conference and training time. It's not a lot but we're getting there, it's taken a lot of effort but I now have a very worthwhile Pluralsight subscription I can dip into between projects. I often rediscover my love of the job this way.
October 19, 2012 at 5:46 am
"Now if I could just find the time to take advantage of it ...."
Amen. Especially when you care about work/life balance and its effects on your health.
October 19, 2012 at 6:01 am
I've been fortunate that my employers have all offered some educational benefits. While they wouldn't pay for certifications (even if directly related to the position) they would offer tuition reimbursment, or paid time to go to a free conference. Having just switched to a new company, I am eager to take advantage of the tuition benefit to finish my Master's.
October 19, 2012 at 7:58 am
Unfortunately in 20+ working on IT, I never have had an employer who cares about to invest in training me. And I say unfortunately not for me, but for the employers, because I'm self taught and I always try to be up to date on my own, and when I feel that I'll not longer progress on one place, then I change of job. That is when my ex-employer realizes how valuable I was for the company, and more than one have wanted me back, but I've learned, and in the hard way, that second parts aren't good. 😎
October 19, 2012 at 8:33 am
I've had both types of employers, and I have to say the turnover in the places that didn't train or even actively discouraged it was much higher. I was at one place for four months and saw 3 people come and go. My current employer encourages us all to stay up todate and the turnover is zero(I've been here for almost 5 years now, my longest stay ever at one place). I agree with Steve, even though my employer will pay for training and certs, I still feel the only person that should be in control of my career is me.
October 19, 2012 at 8:43 am
We're encouraged and supported to take relevant training generally a course per year or more if needed and usually get any books we request - an Itzik Ben Gan one landed on my desk this very morning.
But this is civil service and everything HR has to be done by the book so I don't expect any less.
October 19, 2012 at 8:51 am
Most difficult when you work for a company that offers tuition reimbursement, and even has their own learning portal, but refuses to offer any time off for education regardless if the skill is directly related to your job. My employer has specifically stated that education has to be completed on your own time and not company time - and they will not allow attendance to any industry conference regardless if it's free or not unless you take vacation time to attend and pay for all expense out of pocket (so you're basically going on your own). Management tries to say they will pay for things if there is a "business justification" but in practice it never, and will never, happen. Just one of the reasons I'm looking elsewhere.
October 19, 2012 at 8:55 am
My employer hasn't wanted to invest any money in training for anyone, especially IT and developers, for several years now. This has been due to the recession and falling budgets, so I've been told. I do know our budget has gone down each year since the recession started, resulting in layoffs, reductions in benefits, etc.
Rod
October 19, 2012 at 9:08 am
David.Poole (10/19/2012)
CFO "what happens if we pay for training and they leave"?CTO "what happens if we don't pay and they stay"?
What happens if Joe our top performer wants this training and we don't pay? Don't be surprised if you lose him/her.
Jason...AKA CirqueDeSQLeil
_______________________________________________
I have given a name to my pain...MCM SQL Server, MVP
SQL RNNR
Posting Performance Based Questions - Gail Shaw[/url]
Learn Extended Events
October 19, 2012 at 9:25 am
I've worked elsewhere - training was given to those who had already proved themselves or "well liked". It was a "reward". My next company said you need this skill - go take this class. This is the type of company I like to join. My current employer is one of those.
My employer has everyone write an "Individual Development Plan" (IDP). The format is: what you want to develop; what steps will you take; how will you know you achieved/made progress in development. It can include Work/Life Balance. This is for IT, managers and front line staff. There is in-house training (PMI, etc.), blended learning program (one targets managers), and tuition reimbursement (if job related.) I believe 1 to 2 hours a week can be arranged for external training within business hours. Yes, my employer paid for the courses and certificate of one of the the MS Certificates a few years ago. I mentioned to my new manager that I had gone to code camp. She asked what it is and told me to add it to my IDP.
October 19, 2012 at 9:27 am
My employer will pay for training, books, encourages me to research online, and gather information wherever I can. I cannot complain.
M.
Not all gray hairs are Dinosaurs!
October 19, 2012 at 10:00 am
Hm. My current employer would probably not be considered professional by these metrics, indeed :-). I entered this job as a SQL Server developer/admin, but for the first four months, I worked only with Microsoft Access... They actually were planning to move to SQL Server, but those plans were put off for a good while. So, I had plenty of learning to do to learn about operating Microsoft Access and Visual Basic to figure out how to program for them, which came out of my time and time at work (since I could at least do a little research here and there while at work to figure out how to solve problems).
Then they wanted to have integration with various web APIs , and that required some knowledge of C# and PowerShell, so I had to study up on those in much the same manner. They also removed the networking admin they had working here before I arrived from his duties and committed him to working in the warehouse full-time, because I was younger, and as the ideology here goes, younger people know more about computers, so I was better-suited to administering Active Directory and other network tasks (which I had no idea how to do, so more research for me!). The general mindset here is that programming is easy enough to learn, so it shouldn't take too long to learn a new language if you need to get something done. If only it were that simple :Wow:
- 😀
October 19, 2012 at 10:14 am
My current company (15 years at the same place!) has gone back and forth on this over the years. I recall one employee who took advantage of the tuition reimbursement policy to get his masters, and then left six months later to pursue other endeavors in IT. The reimbursement policy was changed after that to delayed reimbursement over time. Could have been worse; I've also worked at another company where the same thing happened and they just killed the reimbursement program.
Over the past 3 to 4 years we've been able to justify various types of training and have the company pay for it; I recently took a webinar on automated QA testing and software to support it, courtesy of a new manager. I made the case for it, detailed out the reasons why I thought it would be helpful, and they agreed it was a good investment. They'll reap the benefits of it over time and it will save them a lot more than they paid.
I think that's my main point of disagreement with Uncle Bob. While I agree professionals are and should be responsible for maintaining their expertise, I disagree that the entire cost of that should be borne by them. Otherwise the company gains a benefit they didn't pay for, and typically you don't get an increase in salary just because you went out and got additional training. So in essence the individual ends up paying for a company benefit - and that's just plain wrong. That would the same as me saying "Hey, Toyota, you came out with a new updated version of the Corrola; you need to give me a new improved one in place of my old one - straight across trade."
I buy my own books ( I LOVE books). I pay for some of my own training, and have been known to take a day off to attend free training locally. My company has also paid for specific training they wanted me to gain skills in, and has allowed me to attend free training locally on company time. I'm currently paying for a "personal improvement" class that will be ongoing for the next several month; it will likely benefit the company as a side effect, I just feel its not something they should pay for. All of these things work for me, and benefit my employer. I'd consider that a "win-win".
P.S. I would never trade in my Corolla station wagon. It's 22 years old, and still gets 36 mpg city / 40 mpg highway. I'd have to go hybrid to beat that, and right now I have other goals for my disposable income. 🙂
Steph Brown
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