Uncontrolled Code
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patrickmcginnis59 10839 (1/21/2014)
I think Steve's final sentence was telling. We need to deliver solutions faster than the business unit can develop their own
I think its awesome how sqlservercentral has solved a problem that the rest of the industry has been struggling with for quite a while now, who knew it was something as simple as "program faster"!!!! Props to you all, I would have never expected that this little website would produce the mythical silver bullet that we've all been looking for all these years!!!!
Now now, let's not get sarcastic eh? That's an intelligent answer in many ways, and deserves a respectful reply. We're not in Sales & Marketing after all.
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Of course, there's an XKCD about this (as everything):
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My complaint about Excel is not the product, but the people that use it, er misuse it.
I can't count the number of times I've been asked/forced to make an "application" out of a spreadsheet. I almost always suggest taking the time to move it at least to Access. Nope, can't do that. Don't want to have to buy 5 licenses of Access. OK, but we'll pay you to spend hours to do it the hard way, and then hours more over the life of the application to maintain the stupid thing. Meanwhile, nobody can get reports out of it. So, you have to add in dynamic charts, etc.
I thinks it's mostly because people understand spreadsheets. I also think it's because they haven't been taught about the evils of uncontrolled data. And it's about a fix it now cheaply mentality.
There, I have that out of my system. I feel better now. 🙂
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chris.smith 91049 (1/21/2014)
patrickmcginnis59 10839 (1/21/2014)
I think Steve's final sentence was telling. We need to deliver solutions faster than the business unit can develop their own
I think its awesome how sqlservercentral has solved a problem that the rest of the industry has been struggling with for quite a while now, who knew it was something as simple as "program faster"!!!! Props to you all, I would have never expected that this little website would produce the mythical silver bullet that we've all been looking for all these years!!!!
Now now, let's not get sarcastic eh? That's an intelligent answer in many ways, and deserves a respectful reply. We're not in Sales & Marketing after all.
LOL it does not!!!!! It deserves to get ridiculed unmercifully!!!!
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As a developer, I have seen major problems with Excel. My clients are primarily financial institutions and my favorite one was the spreadsheet that the person set up to ADD US currency and foreign currency to get totals. When I discovered this (along with a few other problems) and corrected them, the "profit" for the past 10 years on overseas investments disappeared fast. When I go into a new contract, any existing applications I audit first just for this very reason, I am also an accountant so any arguments about how accounting is "done" I can quickly stop. Problems stem not only from developers who perhaps create error prone (copy/paste???), but daily users who need better training in the software and better understanding of even how to so their own job!
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One feature that would be very useful in Excel is the option to create strongly typed columns or regions. That, and also column level NOT EMPTY, DEFAULT, CHECK constraints. FOREIGN KEY constraints could work across sheets, similar to VLOOKUP.
"Do not seek to follow in the footsteps of the wise. Instead, seek what they sought." - Matsuo Basho
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Eric M Russell (1/21/2014)
One feature that would be very useful in Excel is the option to create strongly typed columns or regions. That, and also column level NOT EMPTY, DEFAULT, CHECK constraints. FOREIGN KEY constraints could work across sheets, similar to VLOOKUP.I volunteer on another website often. One thing we constantly have to repeat to the askers: EXCEL IS NOT A DATABASE!
Do I have to repeat that here as well?
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Jim P.A little bit of this and a little byte of that can cause bloatware.
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Jim P. (1/21/2014)
I volunteer on another website often. One thing we constantly have to repeat to the askers: EXCEL IS NOT A DATABASE!Do I have to repeat that here as well?
No, I think we're aware. You have to remember is that looked at the right way it's a simplified database that a user can work in quickly doing work instead of learning arcane join rules and schema designs and security and...
They type in data, enter a formula (or 300), do some VLookups, and voila, they're up and running. It's not a matter of tool for the job, the tool they have works, it's just not idiot proof and easily shared to multiple people simultaneously.
The danger comes in when these spreadsheets become the core of the business, with so many rules and arcane components that it really IS mimicing a code base and data repository. Auditing becomes a nightmare (particularly in the financial industry) and data consistency goes out the window when 8 departments are relying on a tool built for a single person/handful of people. Excel, Access, etc... all of them have their place and are useful tools. What we need to help business understand is context for when a tool built in one place really needs to switch over for an upgrade, and have patience while we do it in more robust tools. Those more robust tools take more planning, time, and energy to construct effectively than what has now become the prototype.
- Craig FarrellNever stop learning, even if it hurts. Ego bruises are practically mandatory as you learn unless you've never risked enough to make a mistake.
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Jim P. (1/21/2014)
Eric M Russell (1/21/2014)
One feature that would be very useful in Excel is the option to create strongly typed columns or regions. That, and also column level NOT EMPTY, DEFAULT, CHECK constraints. FOREIGN KEY constraints could work across sheets, similar to VLOOKUP.I volunteer on another website often. One thing we constantly have to repeat to the askers: EXCEL IS NOT A DATABASE!
Do I have to repeat that here as well?
I know. Even with constraints Excel would still not be a database, but it would make for a better data input and analysis tool. For example, Windows Form controls can have input masks and constraints, so I think of Excel as a grid based input / display form for managing lists. While not a database, it's still possible to (optionally) enforce schema, data type, and referential integrity on top of it.
"Do not seek to follow in the footsteps of the wise. Instead, seek what they sought." - Matsuo Basho
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I think its awesome how sqlservercentral has solved a problem that the rest of the industry has been struggling with for quite a while now, who knew it was something as simple as "program faster"!!!! Props to you all, I would have never expected that this little website would produce the mythical silver bullet that we've all been looking for all these years!!!!
🙂 I didn't say "program faster", I said "deliver solutions faster". There's a very key difference. And I even went on to say that the solution could be as simple as helping the user write the spreadsheet. Imbue them with a bit of care and rigour. And, yes, explain the risks to them.
A solution can be as simple as a roladex. I've seen one solution that simply involved putting tally marks on boxes to ensure they were re-used a given number of times. Not glamorous but it solved a problem. The nice barcode scanner solution with full auditing came later.
The kinds of spreadsheets that are being discussed don't come about because the marketing department were bored on a Wednesday afternoon and decided to kill some time. They come about because the marketing department had an urgent need and didn't have the time for you to develop a fully engineered system. In that scenario you've got two choices: 1. engage with them, get them a workable, if imperfect, solution that allows them to continue to operate or 2. remain disengaged in an ivory tower of good practice while the marketing department goes ahead and develops their own imperfect solution without you. But if you're going to pick option 2 don't pretend that the imperfect solution hasn't come into existence and all the risk engendered by its imperfection has been averted because it hasn't. In fact, the risk is probably worse because you will have given up the opportunity to at least partly mitigate it.
None of which means you shouldn't be continuing to replace these under the table solutions when there's time, that should be an ongoing effort. But do it when there's time.
Or more succinctly:-
A tactical solution (e.g. Excel) can be a valid choice until a strategic solution can be delivered
...what he said.
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Eric M Russell (1/21/2014)
I know. Even with constraints Excel would still not be a database, but it would make for a better data input and analysis tool. For example, Windows Form controls can have input masks and constraints, so I think of Excel as a grid based input / display form for managing lists. While not a database, it's still possible to (optionally) enforce schema, data type, and referential integrity on top of it.You do realise that's the design specification for any of the desktop database applications?
I have heard that Excel and Access should be combined into
EXCESS
cloudydatablog.net
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FunkyDexter (1/21/2014)
A solution can be as simple as a roladex. I've seen one solution that simply involved putting tally marks on boxes to ensure they were re-used a given number of times. Not glamorous but it solved a problem. The nice barcode scanner solution with full auditing came later.
I did this once. We struggled getting phone numbers from our database to people on the network with various platforms. An easy export of the numbers (controlled by the updater, but with a pre-packaged export) and then a batch file solved this.
We need to deliver functionality quicker.
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ssmith94015 (1/21/2014)
I am also an accountantYeah another accountant in the world of systems design. I am always surprised and disappointed that accountants don't take a deeper dive into the design of what is their central tool.
cloudydatablog.net
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Dalkeith (1/21/2014)
ssmith94015 (1/21/2014)
I am also an accountantYeah another accountant in the world of systems design. I am always surprised and disappointed that accountants don't take a deeper dive into the design of what is their central tool.
The abacus? 😛
Currently working with an accounting department, it's because I've become personally convinced that accounting is nothing more than writing fiction with numbers instead of words.
- Craig FarrellNever stop learning, even if it hurts. Ego bruises are practically mandatory as you learn unless you've never risked enough to make a mistake.
For better assistance in answering your questions[/url] | Forum Netiquette
For index/tuning help, follow these directions.[/url] |Tally Tables[/url]
Twitter: @AnyWayDBA
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