February 12, 2009 at 7:55 am
jcrawf02 (2/12/2009)
Bert (2/12/2009)
GSquared (2/12/2009)
I think it was Voltaire who said, "before you may argue with me, you must define your terms". We gave our definitions of the word, and the disagreement disappeared. 🙂Just comes down to nuances of the language.
And we are not closer to a resolution
You've mentioned that several times, Bert. Do you have any suggestions for a solution yourself?
I think the discussion is lending itself to more personal professionalism (to use Gsquared and Mark's terminology) in our day-to-day contact with other humans, in an effort to maintain civility throughout society. "Every journey begins with a single step" ~ Confucious
I've intentionally held back here because I've been blasted on this forum before. But since you asked, here goes. While I'm not a Scientologist, nor would I advocate it, GSquared is correct and history will bear us out; when we use ourselves as a measure of success, we fail. There must be a standard set by "someone" or "something" greater than ourselves (NOT GOVERNMENT) to which we are obligated to follow. Otherwise, this discussion is folly.
February 12, 2009 at 8:00 am
Bert (2/12/2009)
I've intentionally held back here because I've been blasted on this forum before. But since you asked, here goes. While I'm not a Scientologist, nor would I advocate it, GSquared is correct and history will bear us out; when we use ourselves as a measure of success, we fail. There must be a standard set by "someone" or "something" greater than ourselves (NOT GOVERNMENT) to which we are obligated to follow. Otherwise, this discussion is folly.
So if we can't follow ourselves, and we can't follow government, other than advocating that everyone follow a particular religion (which I am not implying that Gsquared is doing, just trying to hypothesize something greater than ourselves), who is setting the standard that we are obligated to follow?
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How best to post your question[/url]
How to post performance problems[/url]
Tally Table:What it is and how it replaces a loop[/url]
"stewsterl 80804 (10/16/2009)I guess when you stop and try to understand the solution provided you not only learn, but save yourself some headaches when you need to make any slight changes."
February 12, 2009 at 8:14 am
jcrawf02 (2/12/2009)
Bert (2/12/2009)
I've intentionally held back here because I've been blasted on this forum before. But since you asked, here goes. While I'm not a Scientologist, nor would I advocate it, GSquared is correct and history will bear us out; when we use ourselves as a measure of success, we fail. There must be a standard set by "someone" or "something" greater than ourselves (NOT GOVERNMENT) to which we are obligated to follow. Otherwise, this discussion is folly.
So if we can't follow ourselves, and we can't follow government, other than advocating that everyone follow a particular religion (which I am not implying that Gsquared is doing, just trying to hypothesize something greater than ourselves), who is setting the standard that we are obligated to follow?
Again, at the risk of exposing myself; I will say God. While I do, in the secular venacular, have a preference for "which God", I won't advocate one here. My experience has been, and again history will bear me out, that if an INDIVIDUAL genuinely seeks God, whether they find MY God or "another" god, they tend to live a more ethical life. We can all site exceptions to this statement but these exceptions are historically a small minority leaving the rest of us a vast majority and thus a more ethical society.
February 12, 2009 at 8:17 am
jcrawf02 (2/12/2009)
Bert (2/12/2009)
I've intentionally held back here because I've been blasted on this forum before. But since you asked, here goes. While I'm not a Scientologist, nor would I advocate it, GSquared is correct and history will bear us out; when we use ourselves as a measure of success, we fail. There must be a standard set by "someone" or "something" greater than ourselves (NOT GOVERNMENT) to which we are obligated to follow. Otherwise, this discussion is folly.
So if we can't follow ourselves, and we can't follow government, other than advocating that everyone follow a particular religion (which I am not implying that Gsquared is doing, just trying to hypothesize something greater than ourselves), who is setting the standard that we are obligated to follow?
I have to say, I knew I would regret brining religion into this discussion.
Externally set standards are NOT the solution. If they were, they'd have already worked, but more violent wars have been and are being fought over religion than any other subject with the possible exception of wealth.
One of the key tenets of Scientology is that you have to set your own standards. Scientology is primarily a set of tools to help you do so.
As for advocating a particular religion for everyone, I have to admit I really like mine, but I would defend with my life people's right to practice any/every other, so long as what they practice doesn't harm others. (I just don't think I'd be able to support a group that's involved in human sacrifice, for example.)
- Gus "GSquared", RSVP, OODA, MAP, NMVP, FAQ, SAT, SQL, DNA, RNA, UOI, IOU, AM, PM, AD, BC, BCE, USA, UN, CF, ROFL, LOL, ETC
Property of The Thread
"Nobody knows the age of the human race, but everyone agrees it's old enough to know better." - Anon
February 12, 2009 at 8:31 am
GSquared (2/12/2009)
jcrawf02 (2/12/2009)
Bert (2/12/2009)
I've intentionally held back here because I've been blasted on this forum before. But since you asked, here goes. While I'm not a Scientologist, nor would I advocate it, GSquared is correct and history will bear us out; when we use ourselves as a measure of success, we fail. There must be a standard set by "someone" or "something" greater than ourselves (NOT GOVERNMENT) to which we are obligated to follow. Otherwise, this discussion is folly.
So if we can't follow ourselves, and we can't follow government, other than advocating that everyone follow a particular religion (which I am not implying that Gsquared is doing, just trying to hypothesize something greater than ourselves), who is setting the standard that we are obligated to follow?
I have to say, I knew I would regret brining religion into this discussion.
Externally set standards are NOT the solution. If they were, they'd have already worked, but more violent wars have been and are being fought over religion than any other subject with the possible exception of wealth.
One of the key tenets of Scientology is that you have to set your own standards. Scientology is primarily a set of tools to help you do so.
As for advocating a particular religion for everyone, I have to admit I really like mine, but I would defend with my life people's right to practice any/every other, so long as what they practice doesn't harm others. (I just don't think I'd be able to support a group that's involved in human sacrifice, for example.)
You need to check your History. USSR...20+ million killed for communism (this number may be grossly underestimated)...10 million of those starved to death in the Ukraine. Germany 10 million killed for Nazism. Asia...10-15 million killed for the "Emporer". Africa...Millions killed to keep the "current" faction in power. And I could go on... FAR more people have died for secular causes. Although one could argue these example boil down to obtaining wealth as you stated. I don't think so much the wealth as the power...
I don't advocate a religion. I'm simply saying if INDIVIDUALS would SINCERELY seek God's will, it would lead to a more ethical society.
February 12, 2009 at 8:42 am
Actually, I would call Socialism/Communism a religion. Has all the trappings of one. Specific statements about the existence of diety, mortality/immortality of the human soul, proscriptions and prescriptions about achieving happiness and living "correctly", rules about money and lifestyle, rules about how to treat disbelievers and how to handle apostacy. And a mandate to spread to every living human on Earth. That, to my mind, puts it squarely in the field of religion. And Socialism has killed more people than even such prior record holders as Black Plague.
Not a question of knowing history. A question of interpreting it.
- Gus "GSquared", RSVP, OODA, MAP, NMVP, FAQ, SAT, SQL, DNA, RNA, UOI, IOU, AM, PM, AD, BC, BCE, USA, UN, CF, ROFL, LOL, ETC
Property of The Thread
"Nobody knows the age of the human race, but everyone agrees it's old enough to know better." - Anon
February 12, 2009 at 8:44 am
Bert (2/12/2009)
I don't advocate a religion. I'm simply saying if INDIVIDUALS would SINCERELY seek God's will, it would lead to a more ethical society.
I understand better what you are stating now, thank you for the explanation. I think you and Gsquared are both agreeing in a manner, in saying that organized religions by themselves are not the answer, as they have caused harm, the search for truth (which involves seeking God, at least for me) is the answer, because an open study will lead to ethical behavior.
However, you are stating that individuals need to seek God, which in turn comes back to putting the onus on us.
Hey, that was funny. 😛
Catch-22, perhaps. We can only change ourselves by letting God change us. That's another discussion entirely, freewill and all.
Regardless of the motivation, we should all behave better, and perhaps we would be able to trust and be trusted.
---------------------------------------------------------
How best to post your question[/url]
How to post performance problems[/url]
Tally Table:What it is and how it replaces a loop[/url]
"stewsterl 80804 (10/16/2009)I guess when you stop and try to understand the solution provided you not only learn, but save yourself some headaches when you need to make any slight changes."
February 12, 2009 at 8:47 am
GSquared (2/12/2009)
Actually, I would call Socialism/Communism a religion. Has all the trappings of one. Specific statements about the existence of diety, mortality/immortality of the human soul, proscriptions and prescriptions about achieving happiness and living "correctly", rules about money and lifestyle, rules about how to treat disbelievers and how to handle apostacy. And a mandate to spread to every living human on Earth. That, to my mind, puts it squarely in the field of religion. And Socialism has killed more people than even such prior record holders as Black Plague.Not a question of knowing history. A question of interpreting it.
I agree whole heartedly. Socialism/Communism is a religion...devoid of God. Again, if INDIVIDUALS would SINCERELY seek God's (not religion's) will, we would have a more ethical society.
February 12, 2009 at 8:49 am
jcrawf02 (2/12/2009)
Bert (2/12/2009)
I don't advocate a religion. I'm simply saying if INDIVIDUALS would SINCERELY seek God's will, it would lead to a more ethical society.I understand better what you are stating now, thank you for the explanation. I think you and Gsquared are both agreeing in a manner, in saying that organized religions by themselves are not the answer, as they have caused harm, the search for truth (which involves seeking God, at least for me) is the answer, because an open study will lead to ethical behavior.
However, you are stating that individuals need to seek God, which in turn comes back to putting the onus on us.
Hey, that was funny. 😛
Catch-22, perhaps. We can only change ourselves by letting God change us. That's another discussion entirely, freewill and all.
Regardless of the motivation, we should all behave better, and perhaps we would be able to trust and be trusted.
BINGO!...on all counts.
February 12, 2009 at 9:00 am
Sounds like we all agree on this, at least on the parts that matter. Now, our job becomes, to convince others to agree. That, my friends, is the fun part, but also the very, very hard part. Will take a lot of work.
- Gus "GSquared", RSVP, OODA, MAP, NMVP, FAQ, SAT, SQL, DNA, RNA, UOI, IOU, AM, PM, AD, BC, BCE, USA, UN, CF, ROFL, LOL, ETC
Property of The Thread
"Nobody knows the age of the human race, but everyone agrees it's old enough to know better." - Anon
February 12, 2009 at 9:03 am
GSquared (2/12/2009)
Sounds like we all agree on this, at least on the parts that matter. Now, our job becomes, to convince others to agree. That, my friends, is the fun part, but also the very, very hard part. Will take a lot of work.
Agreed. And this is where "religious" wars tend to spring up, so I'll be careful.
AND, I appreciate everyone's indulgance.:)
February 12, 2009 at 9:04 am
Bert (2/12/2009)
GSquared (2/12/2009)
Sounds like we all agree on this, at least on the parts that matter. Now, our job becomes, to convince others to agree. That, my friends, is the fun part, but also the very, very hard part. Will take a lot of work.Agreed. And this is where "religious" wars tend to spring up, so I'll be careful.
AND, I appreciate everyone's indulgance.:)
We could go to war with each other, but I just can't work up any enthusiasm for it right now. Maybe next week. I have a couple of openings in my calendar. Is next Tuesday afternoon good for you? 🙂
- Gus "GSquared", RSVP, OODA, MAP, NMVP, FAQ, SAT, SQL, DNA, RNA, UOI, IOU, AM, PM, AD, BC, BCE, USA, UN, CF, ROFL, LOL, ETC
Property of The Thread
"Nobody knows the age of the human race, but everyone agrees it's old enough to know better." - Anon
February 12, 2009 at 9:08 am
GSquared (2/12/2009)
Bert (2/12/2009)
GSquared (2/12/2009)
Sounds like we all agree on this, at least on the parts that matter. Now, our job becomes, to convince others to agree. That, my friends, is the fun part, but also the very, very hard part. Will take a lot of work.Agreed. And this is where "religious" wars tend to spring up, so I'll be careful.
AND, I appreciate everyone's indulgance.:)
We could go to war with each other, but I just can't work up any enthusiasm for it right now. Maybe next week. I have a couple of openings in my calendar. Is next Tuesday afternoon good for you? 🙂
No good, ruins my nap. And shouldn't that be "fervor", not "enthusiasm", in this context?
😛
---------------------------------------------------------
How best to post your question[/url]
How to post performance problems[/url]
Tally Table:What it is and how it replaces a loop[/url]
"stewsterl 80804 (10/16/2009)I guess when you stop and try to understand the solution provided you not only learn, but save yourself some headaches when you need to make any slight changes."
February 12, 2009 at 9:15 am
jcrawf02 (2/12/2009)
GSquared (2/12/2009)
Bert (2/12/2009)
GSquared (2/12/2009)
Sounds like we all agree on this, at least on the parts that matter. Now, our job becomes, to convince others to agree. That, my friends, is the fun part, but also the very, very hard part. Will take a lot of work.Agreed. And this is where "religious" wars tend to spring up, so I'll be careful.
AND, I appreciate everyone's indulgance.:)
We could go to war with each other, but I just can't work up any enthusiasm for it right now. Maybe next week. I have a couple of openings in my calendar. Is next Tuesday afternoon good for you? 🙂
No good, ruins my nap. And shouldn't that be "fervor", not "enthusiasm", in this context?
😛
Tuesday's good for me. Maybe we could start now and you could join us later? What's the address? I'll attack first. Oh, and could one you spot me bus fare?
February 12, 2009 at 9:16 am
Bert (2/12/2009)
jcrawf02 (2/12/2009)
GSquared (2/12/2009)
Bert (2/12/2009)
GSquared (2/12/2009)
Sounds like we all agree on this, at least on the parts that matter. Now, our job becomes, to convince others to agree. That, my friends, is the fun part, but also the very, very hard part. Will take a lot of work.Agreed. And this is where "religious" wars tend to spring up, so I'll be careful.
AND, I appreciate everyone's indulgance.:)
We could go to war with each other, but I just can't work up any enthusiasm for it right now. Maybe next week. I have a couple of openings in my calendar. Is next Tuesday afternoon good for you? 🙂
No good, ruins my nap. And shouldn't that be "fervor", not "enthusiasm", in this context?
😛
Tuesday's good for me. Maybe we could start now and you could join us later? What's the address? I'll attack first. Oh, and could one you spot me bus fare?
Now watch, the FBI's going get wind of this be knocking on our doors :w00t:
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