July 1, 2015 at 8:15 am
Iwas Bornready (7/1/2015)
nick.dale.burns (6/30/2015)
I so strongly disagree with Steve and the authors of the post linked to and it is an argument I am passionate about. Specifically, I do not believe that we should be disregarding tertiary education. Nor, do I think that tertiary education should be trying to stringently tailor itself too closely to an industry.In my opinion, industry is for the highly specialised development of specific skill sets, where we learn to craft our knowledge within a narrow space. The mentorship many of us receive in industry is a critical part of this development. Academia has to be different than industry - we all know it costs enough! Returning to academia, I want an experience and a perspective that I cannot attain in industry. As a professional recently returned to tertiary education, this discussion is so topical to my life!
There is a strong thread of discussion within the business world that universities are not adequately preparing graduates to step into the workforce. However, we should qualify exactly what we mean by this. Is it the case that universities are failing to develop the technical skills such that graduates might step directly into productive roles? Or is it that graduates do not possess the personal skills (a willingness to learn, critical thinking, ability to problem solve, challenge themselves and learn independently) to be successful in the workforce? I believe that the development of specific technical skills is not a primary goal of tertiary education. But if graduates are lacking in personal skills then we have a great failure of society, and not just academia, in developing our youth.
I do agree however that changes in the education system have helped reduce essential soft skills mentioned above. I believe that the pressure and competition for exceptional grades has led to a narrowing of the educational experience. Taking risks or exploring outside the bounds of assessment do not necessarily translate to that coveted A+ and therefore, our students become more mechanical and restricted in their approach to learning. Similarly, we see less open-ended questions in exams and assignments, replaced instead with a higher degree of specification and less ambiguity. This to me is the greatest failure of the current education system.
Reflect on your own first years in industry. Did you possess the necessary technical skills from day one? Are you still in the same field / specialty area? Or, has your career taken unexpected twists and turns that have required you to adapt and learn quickly? Why then should we expect current graduates to come out as technically-skilled in specific areas?
I would encourage a return to the philosophical ideals of higher education, the development of critical awareness, open debate and creativity. These are the skills that we don't have the time and luxury of developing once we enter the business world.
Nick
Well said and I fully agree.
I most heartily concur. I disagree with nearly everything in the editorial. It is a tragedy (and I mean no hyperbole here) for society that tertiary education has been hijacked by business. Let business take care of itself. Society needs responsible citizens with well rounded educations in the humanities (and sciences). Business skills are natural outcomes of good educations, and the reverse is only occasionally true.
July 1, 2015 at 8:23 am
I would have to disagree with the idea that electricians and plumbers don't get any formal schooling. Maybe not university education but there is extensive education needed to pass the required certifications/licenses for those occupations. Also something very useful in these occupations is they have a requirement for apprenticeships. Something that isn't totally a bad thing.
Russ
July 1, 2015 at 8:28 am
I also disagree with that opinion, a CS degree is not supposed to be job training and it's ridiculous to imply that universities should even attempt for it to be so in a field where the current FOTM programming language or technology changes yearly.
If you want just basic technical skills go to ITT tech or something, if you want to understand the basics behind why computers in general work the way they do and the general critical thinking behind why certain things work then get a CS degree.
A math degree is not job training to be an accountant and a CS degree shouldn't be thought of as job training to be a programmer.
July 1, 2015 at 8:28 am
I also strongly disagree. Most plumbers and electricians go through a lengthy training period, whether formal education, formal apprenticeship, or just by starting as a gofer.
I've worked with some very good self-trained programmers and wouldn't hesitate to try working with another, but every one I've worked with was missing some skills that should be picked up in formal training. Of course, I've also worked with a few with advanced degrees who knew everything and couldn't apply any of it well!
July 1, 2015 at 9:11 am
nick.dale.burns (6/30/2015)
...Reflect on your own first years in industry. Did you possess the necessary technical skills from day one? Are you still in the same field / specialty area? Or, has your career taken unexpected twists and turns that have required you to adapt and learn quickly? Why then should we expect current graduates to come out as technically-skilled in specific areas?
I would encourage a return to the philosophical ideals of higher education, the development of critical awareness, open debate and creativity. These are the skills that we don't have the time and luxury of developing once we enter the business world.
Nick
No issue with you disgreeing. It's a valid view. My point is that I think lots of higher education is of dubious value to the individual, though perhaps more value to society. However I also think education is moving faster. My kids learn far, far more than I did in lower and secondary school. However I also think they're tested more (too much) with the emphasize on measuring and scoring schools/teachers more than students.
My complaint is less with education, but more with cost. It's far, far too costly, IMHO, to attend university. We could argue about what can be done there, but the fact remains that I think someone entering technology fields is better off in life by getting to work than school.
Would you argue that people that have never attended university, plumbers, electricians, tradespeople, make the world worse? They're missing out?
It's a tough subject to discuss and understand.
July 1, 2015 at 9:12 am
P Jones (7/1/2015)
As an IT pro and graduate, I've been involved in the recruitment of programmers and the very first requirement on the job spec. is a degree or HND or equivalent level qualification in a relevant discipline. Candidates without were rejected straight away and HR would not allow them to be even considered.When I first joined a software house in the seventies, computer science degrees were fairly scarce and they took graduates from many disciplines including music and sciences using aptitude tests and problem solving to help sift them. Computer science graduates fast tracked through though.
Why? What's the rational? I know the requirement has been there (though it's fading for more and more companies). However is it a rational requirement?
July 1, 2015 at 9:14 am
Kyrilluk (7/1/2015)
In other words, nowadays, going to Uni is less about learning and more about credentials. This is why it is getting extremely expensive to go Uni. The screening out is not only on cognitive ability but also on social status.So the idea that going to Uni is useless for I.T. professional is simply wrong...unless you are in the extreme range of cognitive ability (and come from a relatively healthy family) like a Mark Zuckerberg or a Bill Gate.
So do we need to go to uni or do we need to stop looking at social status of having a degree? I will argue more companies are looking for people to get things done and they are seeing a degree as not necessarily predicting better success. Just like an MCSE.
July 1, 2015 at 9:15 am
ConnieOI (7/1/2015)
While I don't think a degree should be a prerequisite for an IT job, I do strongly agree that so many 'soft' skills are developed while working on a degree.Keep in mind, though, that UK degrees and US degrees are very different ...
I'd argue that some are, but not enough. I've watched recent grads, and seeing my son go through now. Far, far too many of them aren't learning many soft skills. What they're really doing is going through some coursework, learning to learn a bit more on their own, and maturing in a sheltered way.
Not sure that's worth the $25-75k a year it costs
July 1, 2015 at 9:17 am
eric.notheisen (7/1/2015)
I agree with Steve that college provides more than training in terms of communication skills and general knowledge. I also believe that community colleges provide the skills training better suited to our technical work....
I think I agree as well. As a side benefit, I've seen lots of community college kids working high PT or FT, which helps them grow up a bit and mature.
July 1, 2015 at 9:21 am
CGSJohnson (7/1/2015)
For me, I have always found that the goal coming out of college with a degree is to become a critical thinker. In order to do that, you need to have a well-rounded base. Having said that, that foundation should be laid within the first couple years of a 4-year program, with more emphasis on core studies in the final two years. Additionally, internships should be MANDATORY! They will bridge the theory with the practical, and hopefully, create a dual-way tunnel of information -- students presenting to companies new ideas/a fresh perspective and then students bringing back to the schools what is actually needed to be taught.Just my humble opinion.
- Chris
Not a bad idea. However the thing I see is that the well rounded base is too expensive now. I'm lucky that I'm old enough that it was cheaper and my family could help.
Certainly internship and practical work is good. However, I also find many, many people going through college without an idea of what they'll do as a career. I studied economics for my final two years. I have friends with work in music, religion, English, women's Studies, philosophy, math, chemistry, and more that work as programmers. Is that an argument to skip the final two years or that detailed work in an area helped them learn what not to pursue?
If the latter, is it better to spend time in a job or school?
July 1, 2015 at 9:22 am
scott.e.corbett (7/1/2015)
I think a lot of the problem is the idea that computer science and software development are the same thing. It's sort of like saying that physics is the same thing as mechanical engineering. The first of each pair definitely contributes to the second (and vice versa,) but they are two very different disciplines.
Completely agree. However I was more speaking of the training in general. Perhaps I didn't present that well.
Still, is it worth studying SE? Or get a job and start to understand how things work? I think it can work in university, but really the curriculums and work needs to evolve quickly, which means more work for professors. Is that practical? Possible, certainly, but will it happen?
July 1, 2015 at 9:24 am
dhsweg (7/1/2015)
That being said, I admit that I've always also felt that I could've gone much farther in all my pursuits had I gone to college. It's the theory part of all this stuff that I know I lack and is the most difficult part to pick up just from books and blogs.
Because you'd have learned more or because prejudice and silly job requirements slowed you?
July 1, 2015 at 9:25 am
Joe Johnson-482549 (7/1/2015)
As with a lot of posters in the forum, I disagree with Steve's assessment of the ability to be hired without a degree (the 2 of the 3 companies I have worked for required them). Without the piece of paper, you may not even get a chance to speak with someone from the company as most use a vetting service to reduce the number of applicants. It is still possible to get a programming job without a CS degree, though, having hired people recently with a plethora of degree types as long as they had the relevant experience.
Fair enough, and thanks for the thoughts. You may be right. It can be hard to get an interview, but I've seen this become less of an issue as you gain experience.
July 1, 2015 at 9:26 am
Steve Jones - SSC Editor (7/1/2015)
P Jones (7/1/2015)
As an IT pro and graduate, I've been involved in the recruitment of programmers and the very first requirement on the job spec. is a degree or HND or equivalent level qualification in a relevant discipline. Candidates without were rejected straight away and HR would not allow them to be even considered.When I first joined a software house in the seventies, computer science degrees were fairly scarce and they took graduates from many disciplines including music and sciences using aptitude tests and problem solving to help sift them. Computer science graduates fast tracked through though.
Why? What's the rational? I know the requirement has been there (though it's fading for more and more companies). However is it a rational requirement?
I think part of the rational is that it's a very easy criteria for a company to look at and see that X person was capable of putting in a certain degree of commitment to some long term goal.
July 1, 2015 at 9:27 am
swwg69 (7/1/2015)
I have worked with a lot of self taught and degreed graduates.Those with degrees are usually more disciplined in the approach they take. They don't "Cowboy up".
I disagree on the plumber, mechanic etc. analogy.
Try to call yourself one of those on a business loan. Try to call yourself that on a business license application.
They also require training and certifications.
The biggest joke in the IT field is the "Software Architect". That second word has meaning in the real world.
IT just lets people use "Architect" or "Engineer" like they are "Wizard".
We need to have more respect for the meaning of titles and the training that others go through to get the titles.
Then perhaps we can get more respect for our work.
I'm not saying you shouldn't have any training or even certification. The latter is certainly a separate issue for our industry. However you can be a tradesman and be very sucessful. Lots of those people, like lots of us, work for someone else. Someone who has their name on the loan application.
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