July 3, 2008 at 7:31 am
I'm not certified and don't need it. I landed my newest job based on experience, which is more valuable than a piece of paper. I had actually considered certification with my prior employer since they were going to pay for it. Right about the same time, we hired another DBA to help me out and provide backup for when I was out of the office. That person had just completed their certification but was less knowledgeable about the product than I was. Come to find out, that person read a book and didn't do anything more than a brain dump to pass the exam.
We ended up firing that person and hired someone, non-certified, who worked out to be much more competent at doing the job. The new person we hired is still there and very capably carrying the extra load I left behind when I took my new job.
I know this is just one example but I think that employers who rely on the certification are not very wise in their hiring. The school of "hard knocks" is frequently a better education. I would be curious to find out how many "seasoned" experts are certified and whether they were certified first or went back after a number of years?
July 3, 2008 at 7:34 am
At the last place that I worked we once hired a SQL DBA who had his MCDBA. Well, it didn't take long before I found out that even though I did not know enough about SQL server to pass the certification test I knew more that him. He was later let go because he could not do the work required.
One problem with some certifications is that there are study guides/tools that teach you how to study to pass the tests, not how to study to know the subject matter. This leads to too many people that can talk the talk but can't walk the walk.
I guarantee you, if I'm ever involved in hiring for a position where a candidate says he or she has a certification, they're have to prove to me they can walk the walk.
They only think the certification says to me about an individual is that they were willing to go thru the trouble of getting certified. I guess they can't be 100% lazy then.
I heard that Microsoft is working towards an improved process for certifications, a process that should filter out the one that can only talk the talk. I welcome that day. Maybe certifications will be more meaningful then.
p.s. Jim Powers!! You stole my story!! 😉
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July 3, 2008 at 8:22 am
As some have stated above, I believe certifications are a way to separate yourself from others. They're no the only way, perhaps you separate yourself from others by having many more years of experience, perhaps it's with a 4 year CS or MIS degree. It's just one more thing to put on a Resume to help get yours into the pile for interviews.
I know people who are certified with 4 year degrees that don't know a thing, I also know people with certifications and 4 year degrees that really know their stuff. I know people who don't have either that are clueless and some that are very knowledgeable.
With anything like this you get both sides of the coin and many variations in the middle. for me, when I left the military I had experience but no degree and I believe my certifications helped get me in the door to a few interviews that my experience alone wouldn't have. Of course that was in 2001 right after the .com bubble burst and employers in my area were requiring 4 year degrees and 4+ years experience for jobs that entailed little more than resetting passwords and changing toner cartridges...
It's all about having a good combination of what the employer is looking for.
July 3, 2008 at 8:45 am
Excellent parody - a perfect balance of humor and poignancy. Thanks!
webrunner
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A SQL query walks into a bar and sees two tables. He walks up to them and asks, "Can I join you?"
Ref.: http://tkyte.blogspot.com/2009/02/sql-joke.html
July 3, 2008 at 8:48 am
To some degree, I think the value of certification depends on what the market demands. Currently, I think there is a fairly high demand for SQL Server DBAs so employers may not be as concerned about it. If there ever is a glut of our kind, employers may be more selective in who they hire and certification may hold more weight in their decisions. However, no matter what the state of the market is, I do agree with others that employers need to probe deeper and find out what the person really knows.
July 3, 2008 at 9:47 am
Seggerman - You went thru SetFocus training? They approached me a few months ago, took their tests and they wanted me to go to take the classes. I thought it was not worth the time and eventually became their cheap labor.
I am surprised to see someone actually went through their training!!!!!
July 3, 2008 at 9:51 am
From what I saw the posts so far, the people who got the certificate ended up the one who did not know how to do the job. So what is the cert worth for?
Also from what I see 95% of the job post does not require a cert, and the best DBA I encountered did not have any cert.
So should people go and get the cert?
July 3, 2008 at 9:56 am
It seems like we're getting back to the classic arguments. When the economy is good and everyone is fat, you don't need anything extra to get or keep a job. The problem occurs when things get lean.
Some "set based" math:
Great economy = you don't even have to be very good at what you do to get and keep a high paying job. Being able to spell 'DBA' is a resume enhancer. Employers ask when you want the limo to pick you up every day. Holiday party is held at the most expensive restaurant in town.
Good economy = certs and degrees are gravy; nice to have but not needed. Good employers look for experience and technical knowledge, but you can get by sometimes when they're desperate for a body. Get yourself there, holiday party is held at the Holiday Inn.
Medium economy = Managers start "CYA" - they need to rationalize their hiring practices as things get lean - you start needing things that make you stand out. Certs and degrees are preferred over nice guys with other qualifications. Warning - chumps get dumped here. If you're just getting by, fix the problem before the eononmy gets to this point. Pizza is brought in for holiday in the conference room, if a party is held.
Bad economy = Chumps are long gone. Employers start putting resumes through text searches that will include "degree" and certification". People without those words in the resume won't even get an interview. Getting the job means not just experience, but industry experience, degree and certification. You are competing with 10 people who have all of that. Holidays? Hey, the manager can hire people from overseas where they don't have holidays. You'll get kicked out of the interview for even mentioning time off...
So the question is: How lucky are you feeling today?
___________________________________________________
“Politicians are like diapers. They both need changing regularly and for the same reason.”
July 3, 2008 at 10:05 am
Most of the very talented DBAs I know, including most of the MVPs, have certifications.
It's a selling point. It doesn't prove you are a great DBA, but it does show that you have gone to some effort in your profession.
July 3, 2008 at 10:05 am
Loner,
Certification is not about how good a DBA or developer someone is- unfortunatly. Neither is years of experience (as I have found - never judge a book by how old the cover looks, you have to read and explore the skill set properly).
I am currently certified, but will probably not be renewing (MCDBA - 2000/Win 2003) my certification. The one thing you will learn if you do go for certification (or just any continual learning process without the exams) - is I' didnt realise you could do that ! - Wow, thats a neat trick (Dont go down braindump routes - learn from first principles).
Its amazing how much SQL Server changes over each version, some of the best people out there are uncertified as you have discovered - I suspect that they do a lot "read the manual" or "lets try this" or "I might be able to do it this way..".
The reason, why I took certification was to met a company objective (years ago). Ended up learning a few things from good old-fashioned book reading, that I must admit have probably forgotten by now (e.g. what network protocols does win98 support that winxp doesnt?) - as they are not used in my core-day-to-day job.
The best people out there, are the ones who listen , keep their eyes open and keep learning regardless of certification.
July 3, 2008 at 10:06 am
I agree 100% with Steve.
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July 3, 2008 at 10:11 am
Loner - way to go. I think that about sums it up.
I guess my question is why would someone not become certified if they are serious about being a SQL Server DBA?
It can be accomplished for the cost of the tests, if you have the experience no classroom time should be required, just a bit of studying to brush up. At any rate is can help to build out your resume, and set you apart from your peers.
July 3, 2008 at 10:21 am
If the people making the recruiting/hiring decision have no insights into the job or understanding of the skills required, they tend to rely on secondary criteria such as certifications, degrees, old military rank, old job titles, length of service in similar positions, etc.
When I see a mismatch between low skills and high credentials, I tend to fault the hiring manager.
July 3, 2008 at 11:01 am
Jim Russell (7/3/2008)
If the people making the recruiting/hiring decision have no insights into the job or understanding of the skills required, they tend to rely on secondary criteria such as certifications, degrees, old military rank, old job titles, length of service in similar positions, etc.When I see a mismatch between low skills and high credentials, I tend to fault the hiring manager.
Jim, I think you and Someguy nailed it. I have neither a degree nor certification, though I was once a CCNA, yet I keep servers alive with skill and develop some pretty complex systems. I definitely was held back when job hunting from not having either, yet I am consistently considered a very valuable employee and get great reviews, not to mention developing some pretty sophisticated systems that no one else here can do while training others in database theory and development.
But because I have no degree or cert, I'm a non-entity when it comes to HR departments that don't have a clue. If you don't get past them, the first cut, then the people in IT who could appreciate my resume and what it describes in projects done and skills used will never see that resume.
I'm working on the degree, not easy when you're working full-time and enjoy something resembling a life, and I should be pounding on the cert exams during the summer while I'm out of school instead of playing with Perl. And even there I'm stuck with the quandary of running only 2000 at work: do I go for 2005 certs or 2008? I'm sure I'll go for 2008, I just have to get it running on my Mac.
😀
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[font="Arial"]Knowledge is of two kinds. We know a subject ourselves or we know where we can find information upon it. --Samuel Johnson[/font]
July 3, 2008 at 11:13 am
Wayne West (7/3/2008)
...I have neither a degree nor certification...
Welcome to the club, Wayne.
If it is any consolation, it is even worse when you are working in one of those "HR departments that don't have a clue"!
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