July 19, 2012 at 8:30 am
jbnv (7/18/2012)
djackson 22568 (7/18/2012)
jbnv (7/18/2012)
Given Americans' obnoxious refusal to use common-sense things like the metric system and dollar coins instead of bills, would probably never happen..
Wow. People can read so much into a few words.
As for the personal attack, I don't need to respond to that, but I will say that I cringe when I see my political allies respond like that.
Attack and disparage an entire country, and those who respond in defense must be bad people. Very sad.
Also, I only gave an example of how one might respond, instead of actually attacking anyone like you clearly did above. A lot of people have responded and recognized that it isn't in the best interest of everyone to make these changes, instead of blaming America.
Dave
July 19, 2012 at 8:41 am
paul.knibbs (7/19/2012)
Mad Myche (7/18/2012)
Daylight Savings time was a scheme created for the eco-nuts to lower lighting bills and HVAC costs.
Really? I'm surprised there were so many eco-nuts around in 1916, or that lighting bills were so much of a problem back then... 😛
I am not sure if it is true given how schools seem to all have their own agenda, but I was taught that DST was to allow farmers to be more productive.
DST changes made during the Bush administration were to appease the "eco-nuts" that Mad Myche referred to. I can't say whether there was any positive outcome of the change, I do know there have been serious costs associated with it, that almost certainly have outweighed any benefit realized up to now. Maybe in a few decades the return will exceed the cost.
Dave
July 19, 2012 at 8:46 am
I'm pretty sure that farmers themselves don't give half a monkey's for DST--they structure their day around the rising and setting of the sun, and what direction the hour hand is actually pointing at that time isn't relevant to them. Of course, it doesn't mean your idea is incorrect, because DST was introduced by politicians who probably know about as much about farming as they do about particle physics!
July 19, 2012 at 8:52 am
djackson 22568 (7/19/2012)
jbnv (7/18/2012)
djackson 22568 (7/18/2012)
jbnv (7/18/2012)
Given Americans' obnoxious refusal to use common-sense things like the metric system and dollar coins instead of bills, would probably never happen..
Wow. People can read so much into a few words.
As for the personal attack, I don't need to respond to that, but I will say that I cringe when I see my political allies respond like that.
Attack and disparage an entire country, and those who respond in defense must be bad people. Very sad.
You don't know me. I am as American as anyone. I wear the Tea Party label with pride. And yet I also have the good sense to acknowledge that Americans tend to be stubborn and resistant to change even when an alternative is clearly better and the American cannot defend the status quo any deeper than "I don't want to change." I am not attacking or disparaging anyone. Just acknowledging reality.
A lot of people have responded and recognized that it isn't in the best interest of everyone to make these changes, instead of blaming America.
Thank you for proving my point. Nobody has provided any reason for maintaining local time zones over a universal time. Nobody has disproven my claim.
Jay Bienvenu | http://bienv.com | http://twitter.com/jbnv
July 19, 2012 at 8:54 am
paul.knibbs (7/19/2012)
I'm pretty sure that farmers themselves don't give half a monkey's for DST--they structure their day around the rising and setting of the sun, and what direction the hour hand is actually pointing at that time isn't relevant to them. Of course, it doesn't mean your idea is incorrect, because DST was introduced by politicians who probably know about as much about farming as they do about particle physics!
Maybe, but you just added more doubt to my mind about what I was taught. I can't say that I remember being taught it was the farmer's requests that drove it, but that is what I took away from it. Given the garbage being pushed on kids today as "proven fact" that later is proven to have been false data provided by the UN (did anyone immediately think global warming...), given how I was taught in the 1970s that we would run out of oil by the 1980s, given they are still trying to push outright lies as facts - I have to believe you are correct and the farmer's didn't give two cents about DST.
Dave
July 19, 2012 at 9:02 am
paul.knibbs (7/19/2012)
I'm pretty sure that farmers themselves don't give half a monkey's for DST--they structure their day around the rising and setting of the sun, and what direction the hour hand is actually pointing at that time isn't relevant to them.
I think this is what some of the more enthusiastic timezone-haters are alluding to: Why couldn't we all do that? I have my computers set to US Eastern time, for example, even though I live and work in Spain (because I work remotely, primarily with americans). I, for one, would welcome "world time". And then people could stop selling those stupid stupid little multi-timezone travel clocks that do no-one any good anyway 🙂
Admittedly, Swatch, the swiss watch brand, did this a few years ago (as a marketing stunt), and called it "internet time" - unsurprisingly, it never took off.
What we're unlikely to get past (until, maybe, we reach the stars and decide to do things better on other revolving globes) is the ability to say "6 PM" and understand that that's mid-to-late afternoon to the speaker, no matter where you are in the world. Timezone-less time is great for talking about things that happen at the same time everywhere, but not good for local things, like "when our co-workers across the pond are sleeping")
All this is weakening my resolve - I think I'm going to give in to the gimmick and go out and buy a Swatch watch with internet time :hehe:
http://poorsql.com for T-SQL formatting: free as in speech, free as in beer, free to run in SSMS or on your version control server - free however you want it.
July 19, 2012 at 9:25 am
jbnv (7/19/2012)
djackson 22568 (7/19/2012)
jbnv (7/18/2012)
djackson 22568 (7/18/2012)
jbnv (7/18/2012)
Given Americans' obnoxious refusal to use common-sense things like the metric system and dollar coins instead of bills......
You don't know me. I am as American as anyone...
Maybe next time you could indicate where you come from
instead of: "Given Americans' obnoxious refusal..."
write: "Given our (Americans') obnoxious refusal..."
A citizen/resident of a country attacking his own country will generally be percieved differently from an attack that seems to come from the outside.
Or, better yet, you could replace 'obnoxious' with another word.
Also, you might consider using "US" or "USA" instead of "American" as I think Brazil is on the metric system and they are American (more specifically South American) 😀
July 19, 2012 at 9:27 am
Tao Klerks (7/19/2012)
What we're unlikely to get past (until, maybe, we reach the stars and decide to do things better on other revolving globes) is the ability to say "6 PM" and understand that that's mid-to-late afternoon to the speaker, no matter where you are in the world. Timezone-less time is great for talking about things that happen at the same time everywhere, but not good for local things, like "when our co-workers across the pond are sleeping")
But why do we have that understanding in the first place? At some point in the past, someone divided the day into 24 units called "hours," and designated one of those units as the "zero hour." And terminology has evolved from there. The word "noon" evolved from the same root as "nine"--thus "noon" was originally the 9th hour, but somehow it became the 12th hour. And "midnight" isn't always the median time between sundown and sunup. Likewise, "6PM" doesn't denote anything about what the local person is doing. He/she may have just ended their workday, may be late into it, or may be working a late shift and is getting ready to go to work.
Given these facts, couldn't we just develop a new set of terminology to denote what is happening locally? Terms describing events like "working/business hours," "sunup", "sundown," "midday," etc. would rise in use. "Midnight" could cease to mean a specific time and just mean "the middle of the night," just as "midday" doesn't denote a specific time. And we would get used to having our workday go from "13:00-22:00" instead of "8am to 5pm."
For the record, I'm not a time-zone hater but a pragmatist. I didn't have a passion about time zones until this thread. However, I have had to work with time zones in a recent project, and they were a hassle. I have also worked with people in other time zones. I'd rather talk to them in universal time rather than having to convert between time zones and the confusion that can bring. And, of course, I am familiar with Daylight Savings and the hassles that brings for everyone.
Jay Bienvenu | http://bienv.com | http://twitter.com/jbnv
July 19, 2012 at 9:33 am
paul.knibbs (7/19/2012)
I'm pretty sure that farmers themselves don't give half a monkey's for DST--they structure their day around the rising and setting of the sun, and what direction the hour hand is actually pointing at that time isn't relevant to them. Of course, it doesn't mean your idea is incorrect, because DST was introduced by politicians who probably know about as much about farming as they do about particle physics!
I had a dairy farmer tell me once that DST was a hassle - apparently you milks the cows every day and the time of day that you milk them depends on when the milk can be picked up by the truck on your route.
When you change to/from DST the truck comes 24 hours after the last time it came - htough the hour changed.
FWIW
July 19, 2012 at 9:52 am
Chris.C-977504 (7/19/2012)
jbnv (7/19/2012)
djackson 22568 (7/19/2012)
jbnv (7/18/2012)
djackson 22568 (7/18/2012)
jbnv (7/18/2012)
Given Americans' obnoxious refusal to use common-sense things like the metric system and dollar coins instead of bills......
You don't know me. I am as American as anyone...
Maybe next time you could indicate where you come from
instead of: "Given Americans' obnoxious refusal..."
write: "Given our (Americans') obnoxious refusal..."
A citizen/resident of a country attacking his own country will generally be percieved differently from an attack that seems to come from the outside.
Or, better yet, you could replace 'obnoxious' with another word.
Also, you might consider using "US" or "USA" instead of "American" as I think Brazil is on the metric system and they are American (more specifically South American) 😀
Point taken. "The stubborn refusal of too many of my fellow citizens of the United States to use..." 🙂
Jay Bienvenu | http://bienv.com | http://twitter.com/jbnv
July 19, 2012 at 10:19 am
jbnv (7/19/2012)
Chris.C-977504 (7/19/2012)
jbnv (7/19/2012)
djackson 22568 (7/19/2012)
jbnv (7/18/2012)
djackson 22568 (7/18/2012)
jbnv (7/18/2012)
Given Americans' obnoxious refusal to use common-sense things like the metric system and dollar coins instead of bills......
You don't know me. I am as American as anyone...
Maybe next time you could indicate where you come from
instead of: "Given Americans' obnoxious refusal..."
write: "Given our (Americans') obnoxious refusal..."
A citizen/resident of a country attacking his own country will generally be percieved differently from an attack that seems to come from the outside.
Or, better yet, you could replace 'obnoxious' with another word.
Also, you might consider using "US" or "USA" instead of "American" as I think Brazil is on the metric system and they are American (more specifically South American) 😀
Point taken. "The stubborn refusal of too many of my fellow citizens of the United States to use..." 🙂
I just don't like the blanket statement as a whole, sorry.
July 19, 2012 at 10:34 am
Lynn Pettis (7/19/2012)
I just don't like the blanket statement as a whole, sorry.
I don't either, but that's for another day.
July 19, 2012 at 10:42 am
Lynn Pettis (7/19/2012)
jbnv (7/19/2012)
Chris.C-977504 (7/19/2012)
jbnv (7/19/2012)
djackson 22568 (7/19/2012)
jbnv (7/18/2012)
djackson 22568 (7/18/2012)
jbnv (7/18/2012)
Given Americans' obnoxious refusal to use common-sense things like the metric system and dollar coins instead of bills......
You don't know me. I am as American as anyone...
Maybe next time you could indicate where you come from
instead of: "Given Americans' obnoxious refusal..."
write: "Given our (Americans') obnoxious refusal..."
A citizen/resident of a country attacking his own country will generally be percieved differently from an attack that seems to come from the outside.
Or, better yet, you could replace 'obnoxious' with another word.
Also, you might consider using "US" or "USA" instead of "American" as I think Brazil is on the metric system and they are American (more specifically South American) 😀
Point taken. "The stubborn refusal of too many of my fellow citizens of the United States to use..." 🙂
I just don't like the blanket statement as a whole, sorry.
My issue is that the US is a free society, but the rest of the world, and a huge portion of our current leaders in the US, are focused on changing the US to be what they perceive as a good thing, but yet the rest of the world is finding their systems are significantly flawed. We learned this decades ago, so did the Soviets, China even made some small changes. Europe failed to learn it, now they are seeing why their policies don't work, and our leaders are pushing us to follow the plans Europe will (hopefully) shortly move away from.
The Imperial system works. Time zones work. Stop "telling me" to change. The debate here about whether it is a good thing to change is great! However when we start pushing our own opinions on others by using attacks against their views and saying they are essentially stupid for not doing it our way - sorry, I am not going to accept that. Like the old saying goes - "Who died and made you God!"
Propose new ideas. Debate new ideas. Accept that others might see things differently. Critique the ideas, not the individual, and definitely not entire groups of people. In the end you may see improvement. But if things don't change, be ready to accept that maybe you are the one who is wrong, and your idea just might be unworkable or otherwise flawed.
Dave
July 19, 2012 at 11:16 am
You are really taking this personally. Like I said, I am not attacking any particular person or their views, just imploring that this is another case where a change would benefit us but almost surely won't happen because Americans are stubborn about pragmatic change. The Imperial system works; the metric system works better. You still haven't provided any evidence that time zones accomplish anything meaningful in modern times.
The "free society" argument is irrelevant to this discussion. I am free to establish my own time system and expect everyone to use it, but the odds are that I won't accomplish anything by doing so.
And now you are accusing me of having a God complex. Seriously? So if I think I have a better way of doing something I must think I am God and have the right to force everyone to use it? I must wonder what you are projecting by making this sort of leap.
djackson 22568 (7/19/2012)
My issue is that the US is a free society, but the rest of the world, and a huge portion of our current leaders in the US, are focused on changing the US to be what they perceive as a good thing, but yet the rest of the world is finding their systems are significantly flawed. We learned this decades ago, so did the Soviets, China even made some small changes. Europe failed to learn it, now they are seeing why their policies don't work, and our leaders are pushing us to follow the plans Europe will (hopefully) shortly move away from.The Imperial system works. Time zones work. Stop "telling me" to change. The debate here about whether it is a good thing to change is great! However when we start pushing our own opinions on others by using attacks against their views and saying they are essentially stupid for not doing it our way - sorry, I am not going to accept that. Like the old saying goes - "Who died and made you God!"
Propose new ideas. Debate new ideas. Accept that others might see things differently. Critique the ideas, not the individual, and definitely not entire groups of people. In the end you may see improvement. But if things don't change, be ready to accept that maybe you are the one who is wrong, and your idea just might be unworkable or otherwise flawed.
Jay Bienvenu | http://bienv.com | http://twitter.com/jbnv
July 19, 2012 at 11:24 am
jbnv (7/19/2012)
You are really taking this personally. Like I said, I am not attacking any particular person or their views, just imploring that this is another case where a change would benefit us but almost surely won't happen because Americans are stubborn about pragmatic change. The Imperial system works; the metric system works better. You still haven't provided any evidence that time zones accomplish anything meaningful in modern times.The "free society" argument is irrelevant to this discussion. I am free to establish my own time system and expect everyone to use it, but the odds are that I won't accomplish anything by doing so.
And now you are accusing me of having a God complex. Seriously? So if I think I have a better way of doing something I must think I am God and have the right to force everyone to use it? I must wonder what you are projecting by making this sort of leap.
One, you are still generalizing when you say "Americans are stubborn about pragmatic change'. I'm sorry, but you could potentially say this about almost any group. It is a generalization that I simply take offense to on basic principles.
Two, on this "The Imperial system works; the metric system works better", whose definition of better? What makes it better? Or is it just easier to convert between different units of measure (centimeters <> meters <> kilometers).
Viewing 15 posts - 61 through 75 (of 110 total)
You must be logged in to reply to this topic. Login to reply