March 22, 2016 at 6:51 am
tindog (3/22/2016)
I agree, and I think it does make everything a bit more daunting, especially when you're trying to decide whether to go down DBA/Analyst/developer routes. It sounds like you've got the motivation to learn, and a great boss - do you ever get the opportunity to pick their brains? I've had managers before who have offered valuable direction (and then some who would rather I sat down and stopped asking questions...), so it might be worth asking their advice 🙂
I do, but my boss doesn't really know anything about business intelligence, data analytics, or SQL Server. I am aiming more for the BI side of things, so I want to develop a deep knowledge of data architecture, managed data, SSAS, SSRS, and possibly tools like PowerBI. The organization I work for never had business intelligence until I convinced the IT Director to let me have 6 months to build and deliver them a BI solution. Now they are hooked and I am just starting to branch out into providing BI to other areas of the organization. As a result, I got shoved into the business solutions team whose current operational standard is to gather requirements and identify a vendor that can meet those requirements. As a result, I am sort of left to my own devices as far as BI is concerned since I am one of the few people developing solutions in-house.
March 22, 2016 at 7:21 am
JesseBizInt (3/22/2016)
tindog (3/22/2016)
I agree, and I think it does make everything a bit more daunting, especially when you're trying to decide whether to go down DBA/Analyst/developer routes. It sounds like you've got the motivation to learn, and a great boss - do you ever get the opportunity to pick their brains? I've had managers before who have offered valuable direction (and then some who would rather I sat down and stopped asking questions...), so it might be worth asking their advice 🙂I do, but my boss doesn't really know anything about business intelligence, data analytics, or SQL Server. I am aiming more for the BI side of things, so I want to develop a deep knowledge of data architecture, managed data, SSAS, SSRS, and possibly tools like PowerBI. The organization I work for never had business intelligence until I convinced the IT Director to let me have 6 months to build and deliver them a BI solution. Now they are hooked and I am just starting to branch out into providing BI to other areas of the organization. As a result, I got shoved into the business solutions team whose current operational standard is to gather requirements and identify a vendor that can meet those requirements. As a result, I am sort of left to my own devices as far as BI is concerned since I am one of the few people developing solutions in-house.
It definitely sounds like you're on the right track. What's their training budget like? It might be worth finding a suitable course (MS data warehousing, analytics etc) and persuading them to put you on it. I usually look for say, 3-5 courses and present them to my line manager in a persuasive e-mail. It sounds like you've got a lot of power over that part of the business, which although can be stressful, can also put you in a great position.
You might also want to look out for BI guru's on these forums and see if a few polite PM's will get you some advice - if they have the time, explain where you are, where you want to be, and that you're having trouble figuring out which gaps need to be filled in.
March 22, 2016 at 7:24 am
Andy Warren (3/22/2016)
...I don't feel like schools do a good job of explaining what we do, or comparing it to what other professions do...
In the UK schools haven't a clue. Probably because they don't have any support from the industry. Probably because there is no singular IT body. Here the British Computer Society (BCS) could perform this role and maybe should.
I was lucky in education as the college1 that I went to was very advanced at the time (down to the lecturers - thank you!!!) whereas I see a lot of IT education based on either presentations, documentation, spreadsheets or static & animated web pages (never dynamic). These are not IT Pro teachings but day to day office worker skills. Far too many IT graduates appear to have been let down by their syllabus too.
1Just to be clear, college in the UK is 16-18. University for us (18-22ish) is what I believe the US calls college.
Gaz
-- Stop your grinnin' and drop your linen...they're everywhere!!!
March 22, 2016 at 7:24 am
I'm an "older" DB person, who is coming back after a 15 year absence. A lot has changed, but I am working hard to catch up. Been looking for a good mentor.
March 22, 2016 at 7:34 am
Gary Varga (3/22/2016)
Andy Warren (3/22/2016)
...I don't feel like schools do a good job of explaining what we do, or comparing it to what other professions do...In the UK schools haven't a clue. Probably because they don't have any support from the industry. Probably because there is no singular IT body. Here the British Computer Society (BCS) could perform this role and maybe should.
I was lucky in education as the college1 that I went to was very advanced at the time (down to the lecturers - thank you!!!) whereas I see a lot of IT education based on either presentations, documentation, spreadsheets or static & animated web pages (never dynamic). These are not IT Pro teachings but day to day office worker skills. Far too many IT graduates appear to have been let down by their syllabus too.
1Just to be clear, college in the UK is 16-18. University for us (18-22ish) is what I believe the US calls college.
Yep. School (GCSE-level) IT taught us Excel, Frontpage and touch-typing. I also remember an obscene amount of Powerpoint presentations overloaded with clip-art...didn't realise it was a country-wide issue.
Everything I've learned from Uni I could have learned in a few months online. I completed my "dissertation" mostly on my work lunch-breaks and still managed 75%. If I wasn't already working, I probably wouldn't have finished the course, out of boredom. (Incidentally I know several full-time students who did drop out for those reasons and are now successful software devs.)
March 22, 2016 at 7:42 am
Over the past decade, the bar has been raised regarding requirements for a DBA or data professional. That's good, but perhaps we need to reach out and be better mentors.
"Do not seek to follow in the footsteps of the wise. Instead, seek what they sought." - Matsuo Basho
March 22, 2016 at 7:43 am
Dalkeith (3/22/2016)
I know what you are talking about.Humanity's natural tendency to protect and keep children in particular safe in a strange way seems to lead to arrogance and ignorance. I think this is a problem for all disciplines but particularly technical disciplines. We don't generally grow up in the kind of environments of our forefathers that focused the mind on responsibility and competence where the smallest thing was incredibly important. This only seems to be marching on with each successive generation.
We are generally less likely than our ancestors to have been left at home unattended. We are less likely to have had to find our own way to school.
Edgar Codd was a fully fledged pilot that had fought in the Second World War by the time he was 25 !!
He flew Sunderlands - flying boats - they had a small machine shop in them so you could do repairs while you are flying!
That there is going to breed a bit of solid resolve and responsibility and focus on what is truly important.
I think the trick is to try and step outside of your frame of reference as often as possible and try and see what the true value is in your work. Question everything but try not to be disrespectful. Likewise try to encourage the same in others especially the next generation but gracefully surrender things to youth should it be the right thing to do.
Its just the way of the world it need not be the way of you or me
That's a ridiculous comparison, he flew Sunderlands and was a pilot because there was a war that demanded participation from everyone. Generations since then have had relative peace in comparison with WWII, and the rest of the world has changed as well.
All we can do is keep doing what we know we need to, point people to resources, help them find the answers and learn how to figure out the answers on their own. Steve, you could probably just look at statistics from this site to determine whether the number of competent SQL professionals are increasing, declining or staying static. Anecdotal evidence, even from qualified people such as yourself and Jeff, is just anecdotal evidence.
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March 22, 2016 at 7:44 am
Andy Warren (3/22/2016)
I don't feel like schools do a good job of explaining what we do, or comparing it to what other professions do.
That's because schools don't have a clue what the real jobs are.
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March 22, 2016 at 7:56 am
I think there's a basic lack of job centric training for people looking to get into IT. Unless you're interested in changing mice and running cables there aren't really clear paths you take that would lead to specific higher skilled jobs in IT(accidental DBA?), there might be some for the sexy things like graphic design or video game coding but much less for things like database administration or system engineering.
At least in the US most of those jobs are looking for some kind of 4 year or higher degree in CS or CE or the like but in the US at least those degrees teach a lot of computer theory but not so much real world application. Compare that to say medicine, which has a clearly defined path from undergrad through medical school to a residency which exposes real world work and exposes them to some of the specialty areas in a more controlled way than, hey you got a 4 year degree have fun.
March 22, 2016 at 8:51 am
tindog (3/22/2016)
JesseBizInt (3/22/2016)
I call myself an accidental dev because I ended up falling into a business intelligence role mainly through passion and not through any in-depth technical knowledge. Yes, I can write T-SQL, but indexes... umm... what are indexes?Something that I would love to see would be a basic roadmap of skills. Something that highlights what entry level DBAs should know, what mid-level DBAs should know and what senior DBAs should know. I'd also like to see the same thing applied to the BI portions of SQL Server as well, such as data warehousing, SSAS, and SSRS.
I think one thing that really hinders skill development is that there really isn't a clear path defined. Yes, there are the Microsoft certifications, but do those match what the industry considers best practice. That was a serious question as I haven't taken the exams yet.
Some of the stuff in the exams you will never touch, some of it you will use on an almost daily basis. Some of the techniques your boss will scold you for using, some of them s/he will love. It really depends on the path you choose, company practice/culture, the projects you're assigned to...clear as mud, but I think the exams do give you a solid basis for proving your technical knowledge, plus they give you a way deeper insight into the world of SQL server.
There's a few seniors/managers on here who sometimes give insight into what they look for in a DBA - but opinions seem to differ slightly for each level (junior, mid, senior).
There are dba-s and there are DBA-s. When my manager refers to me as a DBA, I smile politely and bite my tongue, because I know better. SQL server is both broad and deep, and a DBA is required to have deep understanding of a number of pretty arcane areas. BrentOzar.com has some good resources on getting up to speed as a Dba, how to progress to a DBa, and finally what it means to be a DBA (excuse the goofy nomenclature but I'm sure you'll understand). He also goes so far as to identify several flavors of dba, and takes pains to explain why they are mostly NOT 'real' DBAs, although people who do those jobs may do nothing but work with and within sql server. His 6 Month Training Plan is a good place to start. It's free.
March 22, 2016 at 9:49 am
In college Database work was the last thing I wanted to do and SQL wasn't being taught yet. Databases sounded so boring. Then I needed a job, part time while I was still in school. A prof. hooked me up with a friend who was developing a database. I was to start as data entry and see where it went. Well some decades later I still love data. I love that I can take random pieces of data and turn it into information. Random pieces, random facts and create something usable and understandable. I can help people and companies do their jobs. Unfortunately that is not how databases are presented in schools. We will continue to be the fastest growing section of IT. Hopefully students will accidentally get hooked and then develop the technical knowledge.
March 22, 2016 at 12:40 pm
I see a recurring theme in business acquisition of technology and in the attitude to data disciplines.
21 years ago Amazon started and seemingly overnight we could order stuff in the morning and it was either with us 1st thing the next day or earlier. In the UK this pretty much redefined customer service. Why wait 28 days for delivery for shoddy service when Amazon offered brilliant service in timescales that were unimaginable a few years before.
Even public services and banking have improved to the point where the experience leaves you mildly miffed.
The x-factor and Britains got talent reinforce the idea that even fame can be had in a hurry. An entire generation has grown up thinking this is the norm.
The problem for data people is that our product is not an instant gratification product. It takes time to accumulate, care and attention to look after and tenacity to get everything running smoothly. Our product is not directly visible to the powers that be. The guys who present information or produce a GUI are extremely visible and are seen as the heroes of IT. Although we may be respected as individuals I honestly don't feel we are respected as a profession.
Martin Fowler gave a speech illustrating 2 views of IT. The prevalent one was that as far as business people are concerned IT is like sewage pipes. You know they are there, you want them to work but you don't want to see or think about them.
DBAs are the pipe cleaners of IT. We are only visible when things go wrong so we get associated with bad news. At best there is a lack of understanding and even lack of respect for what we do. At the worst there is fundamental disrespect where our views on data management are discounted in favour of the opinions of an enfant terrible who may be a shooting star when it comes to web development but knows little of the concerns of Data management.
You've got to be a bit strange to want to take up a career where you will only ever be recognised by your immediate peers and scorned by many others.
Getting back to the technology selection do your business colleagues clammer for a product underpinned by rich data or do they go gooey for the GUI?
March 22, 2016 at 12:47 pm
I don't consider myself a dev in any way, but was tired of waiting for my company's IT department to get me the data I needed for my supply chain analyst position so I had to learn how to use SSMS and write my own T-SQL. I even took a formal three month online certificate program that taught us the ins and outs of T-SQL. The part that still confuses me and the professor tried his best to clear it up, is why do I need SSMS sometime, but Visual Studio other times, and what's the difference between Data Tools and SSIS. I wanted to learn how to use a specific application that would let me pull and analyze data. But I'm still confused on the myriad of different applications that change functions depending on what release or platform (enterprise vs cloud) your company has installed. It's easy to say, "I need to learn how to use Excel, so I will find tutorials that explain it to me" but a bit vague to say, "I need to learn SQL Server, thus I need to buy this book or take this specific class".
March 22, 2016 at 2:02 pm
David.Poole (3/22/2016)
...do they go gooey for the GUI?
As someone who primarily has developed backends, components and services I can safely say they do. Even when the front end is a pile of shonk but looks pretty :angry:
Gaz
-- Stop your grinnin' and drop your linen...they're everywhere!!!
March 22, 2016 at 7:51 pm
Mangerment shouldn't worry about age or training. They can just hire more H-1Bs or outsource security and DBA positions. :smooooth:
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