May 29, 2009 at 9:02 am
I work for the state government. Everyone's salary is on the state website opening to the public.
Maybe it is good to have the salary going public. Last job I found out I was making the same amount of money as the other developer but I almost did everything for that developer. He could not even write one 'UPDATE' statement correctly. That made me mad.
May 29, 2009 at 9:33 am
If I get the salary like an athlete, does that mean that I have to...
- Immediately start using steroids?
- Open up a pit bull fighting arena in my backyard?
- Buy a house with 20 bedrooms although there are only 4 of us in my family?
- Brush shoulders with Hollywood's latest babes, and then intimate there is more than brushing going on?
- Whine about how unfair it is that Prez Obama hasn't invited me to the White House?
- Generally behave like a pampered caveman?
- Start writing a memoir that exposes the flaws and habits of my co-workers?
- ...and get arrested for drunken driving on a regular basis?
If I can have the money and forgo the stuff above, let me know and I will send an address where to forward the checks.
May 29, 2009 at 9:42 am
blandry (5/29/2009)
If I get the salary like an athlete, does that mean that I have to...- Immediately start using steroids?
- Open up a pit bull fighting arena in my backyard?
- Buy a house with 20 bedrooms although there are only 4 of us in my family?
- Brush shoulders with Hollywood's latest babes, and then intimate there is more than brushing going on?
- Whine about how unfair it is that Prez Obama hasn't invited me to the White House?
- Generally behave like a pampered caveman?
- Start writing a memoir that exposes the flaws and habits of my co-workers?
- ...and get arrested for drunken driving on a regular basis?
If I can have the money and forgo the stuff above, let me know and I will send an address where to forward the checks.
What if it's a chicken vs. egg thing? If so it could be the other way around and we'd get the big salaries once we started acting like that. 😀
May 29, 2009 at 10:38 am
blandry (5/29/2009)
If I get the salary like an athlete, does that mean that I have to...- Immediately start using steroids?
- Open up a pit bull fighting arena in my backyard?
- Buy a house with 20 bedrooms although there are only 4 of us in my family?
- Brush shoulders with Hollywood's latest babes, and then intimate there is more than brushing going on?
- Whine about how unfair it is that Prez Obama hasn't invited me to the White House?
- Generally behave like a pampered caveman?
- Start writing a memoir that exposes the flaws and habits of my co-workers?
- ...and get arrested for drunken driving on a regular basis?
Your answers:
- You need to take memory vitamins
- At least one of you will need to build a D&D dungeon with real weapons. Whoops
- Done
- Hey, you're not Harold or Kumar[/url].
- Maybe a troll?
- done
May 29, 2009 at 11:03 am
Personally I like the idea of having a less subjective system in place, especially at larger companies. I've seen a number of situations where managers subjectively award bonuses and raises (or withhold them) based on their personal relationships, and not someone's performance. The Fog Creek system seems like it might eliminate some of that.
Let us know what you think this Friday. Would you like a less subjective, and more open salary system? Perhaps like today's professional athletes or even like Fog Creek.
What you are talking about here is a payscale and they are pretty common at larger companies. I've experienced smaller companies that don't have a payscale in place, so as they grow raises are based on relationships and get out of hand quickly. It is very difficult to reign these salaries back into a manageable payscale system. The salary is a private negotiation between the hiring manager and the employee. The payscale is a guideline for the manager to know at what levels they can negotiate at. Publicizing personal pay information is a bad idea. If you don't like your work environment or your pay, go find another job or start your own business...this is the benefit of living in a free society....:-)
May 29, 2009 at 6:20 pm
Would you like a less subjective, and more open salary system?
Nope... I don't want anyone to know how much more I make than them. 😉
--Jeff Moden
Change is inevitable... Change for the better is not.
June 2, 2009 at 9:04 am
So much of performance and value is subjective in our field. I probably make more mistakes than my coworkers but I also get more done. That's because I take initiative. So how would a manager rate that, positive or negative? Heck, measuring athletic performance isn't even perfect. An owner may tell a ballplayer "I can only give you 3 million dollars because you have 5 homers and a .230 BA" and the player replies "but I'm hitting .520 with runners in scoring position!" :-D.
I think companies keep salary info confidential in order to keep things looking professional. Employees who are comfortable with eachother are certainly free to talk amongst themselves.
Ken
June 2, 2009 at 9:17 am
Things are always subjective, but an open system allows for less discrimination. People just won't take those jobs if they aren't offered fair salaries enough for there to be better decisions.
Despite having great friends, I've almost never shared a salary. It makes for bad feelings one way or the other.
June 2, 2009 at 9:21 am
Jeff Moden (5/29/2009)
Nope... I don't want anyone to know how much more I make than them. 😉
Hey, if they saw your salary, along with your MVP, they might get motivated to do better. I know a DBA years ago told me what he made and it motivated me to learn more about SQL Server and do a better job.
It was a challenge.
Those that are upset about it probably won't try no matter what.
June 2, 2009 at 9:35 am
I guess I've been used to being in standard payscales in larger companies that seemed fair. Though I must say at a smaller company I stumbled across the salaries of others and was a little perturbed; more at my own unwillingness to negotiate a better rate for myself :unsure:
June 2, 2009 at 9:43 am
ken.trock (6/2/2009)
I think companies keep salary info confidential in order to keep things looking professional. Employees who are comfortable with eachother are certainly free to talk amongst themselves.Ken
I've actually worked for companies where discussing salaries with co-workers was a firing offense, if found out about.
One, the reason for it became evident over a loud argument between two people in the same position. One was doing at least five times as much work as the other (my system kept records, and that's based on actual measurements), had been with the company longer, and had a much better quality record, but was getting less pay. Management never did explain why, but that was the situation. (For the record, management at that company was very secretive and made a lot of decisions that made no sense to anyone outside of their clique.)
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June 2, 2009 at 9:55 am
The fact that it was a firing offense means that there is likely a good amount of discrimination or inequality taking place.
June 2, 2009 at 10:09 am
Rating different qualities is a fairly easy thing to do in my view.
If you need two qualities in equal demand and they are mutually exclusive the one that is hardest find / rarer obviously costs more. Someone’s productivity in day to day operations can be comparatively low, but if that person knows everything about the things needed in your company and does apply them when needed helping the whole team forward, then that person will have quite some value. How high depends then in full on how hard knowledge is to get in the market (in a perfect world).
Sad thing is that the market moves slow when it comes to people and jobs and even functions. People are not things you can digitally move around all the time and physical and emotionally it has its problems as well. This ensures a system where tension builds up over time and then something snaps and a person changes jobs in frustration. In practice a persons value is only re-determined when you change employer. Sure you can get a yearly increase, bonus or simply ask for more. But in general it never becomes less while sitting in the same position, there is absolutely no real dynamic within organizations in my experience.
Also, when you change Job you have the situation that your new employer cannot make an accurate assessment of your value to him, which can be a frustrating experience for both sides. This makes employment a complicated matter, the pricing subject is I think something most people just don’t like to deal with (it’s personal too). Instead most will be happy with a small yearly increase even if that is underpaid according to the marketplace. Only after the gap grows too big, people leave. Some will stay on purpose as they would start to earn less elsewhere. It is the price gap and the assessment of abilities of the employee himself in relation to others that is the trigger point in my view.
Will openness help? I think it will be fairer, more efficient and over time will lower frustration for everyone out there.
June 2, 2009 at 8:20 pm
Steve Jones - Editor (6/2/2009)
Jeff Moden (5/29/2009)
Nope... I don't want anyone to know how much more I make than them. 😉Hey, if they saw your salary, along with your MVP, they might get motivated to do better. I know a DBA years ago told me what he made and it motivated me to learn more about SQL Server and do a better job.
It was a challenge.
Those that are upset about it probably won't try no matter what.
BWAA-HAA!!! Man, do I ever agree with all of that! But, I've found that some thoughtful mentoring and maybe a story about a past code conquest and how much management appreciates such things goes a lot further. If they really press about pay, I direct them to a Google search on "Salary Ranges". They become quite motivated after that. 😉
As a sidebar, I like what Ken Trock said above about "initiative".
--Jeff Moden
Change is inevitable... Change for the better is not.
June 3, 2009 at 8:58 am
One thing I've learned is that you have to ask for what you want. The worst case is they say no, and counter. You're not going to lose a job because you ask for too much money. Might not get it if you won't negotiate, but you have to ask.
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