December 5, 2016 at 8:50 am
corey lawson (12/2/2016)
Hmm... like rebuilding an accidentally dropped table or managing to recover horked data in prod while using elevated permissions there and not telling anyone I screwed it up in the first place? Oh, no. I haven't done that. No siree...
We all know the concept of DevOps; but what you've described above is what I call BlackOps. :ermm:
"Do not seek to follow in the footsteps of the wise. Instead, seek what they sought." - Matsuo Basho
December 5, 2016 at 9:23 am
Eric M Russell (12/5/2016)
corey lawson (12/2/2016)
Hmm... like rebuilding an accidentally dropped table or managing to recover horked data in prod while using elevated permissions there and not telling anyone I screwed it up in the first place? Oh, no. I haven't done that. No siree...We all know the concept of DevOps; but what you've described above is what I call BlackOps. :ermm:
Nah. BlackOps is what they play when they are supposed to be WFH!!! :w00t:
Gaz
-- Stop your grinnin' and drop your linen...they're everywhere!!!
December 5, 2016 at 11:09 am
Gary Varga (12/5/2016)
Eric M Russell (12/5/2016)
corey lawson (12/2/2016)
Hmm... like rebuilding an accidentally dropped table or managing to recover horked data in prod while using elevated permissions there and not telling anyone I screwed it up in the first place? Oh, no. I haven't done that. No siree...We all know the concept of DevOps; but what you've described above is what I call BlackOps. :ermm:
Nah. BlackOps is what they play when they are supposed to be WFH!!! :w00t:
WFH... Working From Home?
This what I meant by BlackOps. It's those last minute or emergency 2AM "fixes" that don't get escalated and no one involved speaks of them the next day.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Black_operation
"Do not seek to follow in the footsteps of the wise. Instead, seek what they sought." - Matsuo Basho
December 5, 2016 at 12:28 pm
Just messing Eric. Just messing. 😉
Gaz
-- Stop your grinnin' and drop your linen...they're everywhere!!!
December 6, 2016 at 3:19 am
well there was the realization that the business model for a subprime mortgaging servicing company I worked for was really kinda sorta rigged to...oh...make life just a little bit hard for said "customers". there was more money in fees from late payments etc than there was in having customers to pay ontime or work things out. Granted, there are some truly subprime people who... well... but i gotta figure more of them than not are just trying to make an honest go at it.
I do not understand financial services. they should be cleverly ripping off the rich ppl, but thats probably like eating your own... so much easier to do it to Those ppl...
glad I don't work there now, but oddly enough across the street from them now..
December 6, 2016 at 10:51 am
Something I've been thinking about concerning a suggestion that Uncle Bob made, has me thinking since I first read the article some days ago. He bemoaned the fact that many software developers today are self-taught or OJT. I am one such person. Back in the day I got my degree in Mathematics. But I couldn't find a job with the degree and so one thing led to another and I taught myself FORTRAN. My programmer career started from that point.
Something else that Uncle Bob and I think someone else said, is they propose that only people with computer science degrees be allowed to work as software engineers/programmer analysts/etc. I'm not so sure about a hard requirement for "computer science majors only". I haven't completely thought this out but I believe it likely that if a specialized education is required in order to become a professional programmer analyst or software engineer, that will inevitably lead to even higher wages for those people. Sort of like what's required to become a doctor, dentist or other profession that requires specialized education. Of course I'd like to make what a doctor makes; I'm sure we all would. But I also think it very likely that many businesses would balk at the need to pay someone a significantly higher salary than they already are. And how about all of those small businesses who hire a programmer to help them with the individual business needs? Such people wear multiple hats, needing to pull network wires or set up Wi-Fi, set-up PCs, be a DBA on whatever database platform they can afford (most likely MS Access) as well as write code for those small establishments. They don't have the funds to pay someone wages well into the 6 digit figures. I think it very likely that many companies, but large and small, in the public sector and the private sector, will not like the idea of "only computer science majors" to be their developers not if it means having to pony up a lot more money than they already pay for such people.
Kindest Regards, Rod Connect with me on LinkedIn.
December 6, 2016 at 12:16 pm
Steve Jones - SSC Editor (11/30/2016)
roger.plowman (11/30/2016)
Don't do things that don't work. We've been down the certification road before, many times. It never works well. A guild/union wouldn't work any better and would introduce all sorts of barriers to new IT people. Such organizations quickly become hide-bound and get in the way rather than help.
Not only that, the entire guild system (and its grand-child the union) is an attempt at monopolistic protectionism. It's all about control and restriction, who is allowed to profit and who controls the guild ultimately controls who works and who doesn't, the pace of progress and the direction it takes.
Sound good to you? 🙂
Not really. Plenty of industries have built certifications and methods of evaluating the work of people. They aren't perfect, but they do work well. I'd like to think we could do that in IT with more maturity. I'm ever hopeful.
I could see the value of an organization for monitoring work product and skills, but ethics aren't a skill. Ethics are a trait: you can't really train someone to be ethical.
----------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Your lack of planning does not constitute an emergency on my part...unless you're my manager...or a director and above...or a really loud-spoken end-user..All right - what was my emergency again?
December 6, 2016 at 6:47 pm
It's generally not a quasi-legal requirement to have an accounting degree to work in accounting. But you probably won't get to be the CFO, Director level, etc. without one nor without CPA certification.
Funny how being CTO or CIO doesnt require similar technical degreeage, but a MBA probably is...
December 7, 2016 at 11:00 am
Rod at work (12/6/2016)
Something I've been thinking about concerning a suggestion that Uncle Bob made, has me thinking since I first read the article some days ago. He bemoaned the fact that many software developers today are self-taught or OJT. I am one such person. Back in the day I got my degree in Mathematics. But I couldn't find a job with the degree and so one thing led to another and I taught myself FORTRAN. My programmer career started from that point.Something else that Uncle Bob and I think someone else said, is they propose that only people with computer science degrees be allowed to work as software engineers/programmer analysts/etc. I'm not so sure about a hard requirement for "computer science majors only". I haven't completely thought this out but I believe it likely that if a specialized education is required in order to become a professional programmer analyst or software engineer, that will inevitably lead to even higher wages for those people. Sort of like what's required to become a doctor, dentist or other profession that requires specialized education. Of course I'd like to make what a doctor makes; I'm sure we all would. But I also think it very likely that many businesses would balk at the need to pay someone a significantly higher salary than they already are. And how about all of those small businesses who hire a programmer to help them with the individual business needs? Such people wear multiple hats, needing to pull network wires or set up Wi-Fi, set-up PCs, be a DBA on whatever database platform they can afford (most likely MS Access) as well as write code for those small establishments. They don't have the funds to pay someone wages well into the 6 digit figures. I think it very likely that many companies, but large and small, in the public sector and the private sector, will not like the idea of "only computer science majors" to be their developers not if it means having to pony up a lot more money than they already pay for such people.
Well, like you my first degree was in Mathematics (and my second degree was in Mathematical Logic). My first real experience of computing was at a brief assignement at RHEL during vacation between those two degrees.
After my second degree(during which I spent far more timeplaying with the Unersity's computers than doing mathematics research) I turned into some sort of computer guy ("technical analyst", "senior associate" , and "senior programmer" were my first 3 job titles after that). So to some extent at least my experience is like yours. But I'm coming from a UK view, not a USA view, and the two countries are quite different.
After those three jobs (amounting to only 4 years in total) I joined ICL as a technical officer and decided I wanted to stay in computing so must to get qualified in computing, and took and passed the BCS part 1 exam (roughly equivalent to a Comuter Science degree), and my Math Logic research gave me exemption from the BCS part 2 exam. So there I was, fully qualified computer guy.
So it's possible to come up with system where Software Engineers or whatever cab be recognised as qformally qualofied without having to take a CS degree. That's a fundamentally necessary requirement for legislation requiring software engineers to be formally qualified. And it's also an essential fundamental that it be recognised that obtaining a degree in CS does not qualify anyone to be a software engineers or a computer scientist. I'v knowpeople with 1st class honours (I guess you call that summisima cum laude or something simlar in th USA) degrees in CS who were completely useless as engineers and didn't even understand the difference between science and being able to shout louder than the next guy (totally unemployable, as anything more useful than rubbish bin emptier).
I think you've got the money side wrong.
The interesting thing about CS degrees and salaries currently is that by age 25 someone who graduated from high school and went straight into work in computing earns much more that someone the same age who did a CS degree (except, maybe, at the best schools); and that higher salary reflects significant achievement and in turn that provides the track record that any competent manager bases recruiting and promotion decisions on. People with maths degrees seem to do far better in computing than people with CS degrees. So I suspect that a CS degree won't give any sort of salary advantage if a sane method of recognising quailification is used, instead of someone just saying "You must have a 4-year CS degree and that's that". I now there are people in the USA who would claim the 4 year degree is essential (every member of the LinkedIn PE group is aware of that, as one otherwise excellent member of the group generates a very large volume of posts asserting that without any supporting evidence at all, and he has pleny of American support).
As a counter, I would offer our British system of qualifying technicians to to connect buildings to the gas mains: it matters not what qualifications you have, you can have a whole string of engineering degrees and be a charteded engineer or you can have left school art 16 and have no formal qualifications whatsoever: to be allowed to do that work, you must take a training course on specifically that work and at the end of itt pass tests on it (not just paper, pratical tests too, I think). The tests are pretty hard, I'm told, so perhaps the pay of the affected technicians has gone up. But requiring that qualification has had the desired negative results on accidents caused by incorrectly implemented connections, and to me that reduction in cost of lives and injuries seems a great deal more important than the monetary cost in technicians' salaries. Doesn't the same apply in computing, where fields like medicine, air traffic control, fission reactor control, fly by wire software, and so on and so on also have a potential impact on everyone's safety?
Tom
December 7, 2016 at 11:07 am
Matt Miller (#4) (12/6/2016)
I could see the value of an organization for monitoring work product and skills, but ethics aren't a skill. Ethics are a trait: you can't really train someone to be ethical.
An organisation for monitoring ethics is not an organisation which trains peope in ethics, and as far as I'm aware professional societies demand compliance with a code of ethics (and perhaps to a limited extent monitor conformance). They make no claim at all to train eithics.
So you're raising a straw man with no relevance to anything real.
Quite apart from that, I believe it is possible to train someone to be ethical, provided one starts when they are very young, and I also believe that it is a responsible of parents (and perhaps of early stage teachers) to undertake such training.
Tom
December 7, 2016 at 7:48 pm
TomThomson (12/7/2016)
Matt Miller (#4) (12/6/2016)
I could see the value of an organization for monitoring work product and skills, but ethics aren't a skill. Ethics are a trait: you can't really train someone to be ethical.An organisation for monitoring ethics is not an organisation which trains peope in ethics, and as far as I'm aware professional societies demand compliance with a code of ethics (and perhaps to a limited extent monitor conformance). They make no claim at all to train eithics.
So you're raising a straw man with no relevance to anything real.
Quite apart from that, I believe it is possible to train someone to be ethical, provided one starts when they are very young, and I also believe that it is a responsible of parents (and perhaps of early stage teachers) to undertake such training.
I was responding to Steve's view about using certification bodies (which tend to both train and test) to evaluate ethics. I don't see how my reaction is NOT relevant to the conversation.
And I am aware of certs groups that encourage their members to espouse a code of ethical conduct (I happen to belong to several). It is all well and good, but all they can do is encourage.
----------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Your lack of planning does not constitute an emergency on my part...unless you're my manager...or a director and above...or a really loud-spoken end-user..All right - what was my emergency again?
December 8, 2016 at 2:18 am
TomThomson (12/7/2016)
Quite apart from that, I believe it is possible to train someone to be ethical, provided one starts when they are very young, and I also believe that it is a responsible of parents (and perhaps of early stage teachers) to undertake such training.
My experience is rather the opposite: Most kids are actually showing very ethical behavior most of the time. Unrelated to their parents and general upbringing. (And please note I said "most" - they are kids, after all).
As they grow up and are introduced to "adult professional societies" that is where they learn all the dirty tricks. In many professions it is not even possible to keep the job if one is not behaving as unethical as the worker next seat. In these cases the level of unethicality is kind of determined at an industrial level; take the increased regulation of the financial sectors as an example of society trying to influence an industry bereft of inner control and limitations.
December 8, 2016 at 2:56 am
hjp (12/8/2016)
TomThomson (12/7/2016)
Quite apart from that, I believe it is possible to train someone to be ethical, provided one starts when they are very young, and I also believe that it is a responsible of parents (and perhaps of early stage teachers) to undertake such training.
My experience is rather the opposite: Most kids are actually showing very ethical behavior most of the time. Unrelated to their parents and general upbringing. (And please note I said "most" - they are kids, after all).
As they grow up and are introduced to "adult professional societies" that is where they learn all the dirty tricks. In many professions it is not even possible to keep the job if one is not behaving as unethical as the worker next seat. In these cases the level of unethicality is kind of determined at an industrial level; take the increased regulation of the financial sectors as an example of society trying to influence an industry bereft of inner control and limitations.
Ouch! Apart from investment banking and sales, I have not heard much in the way of advancement through unethical behaviour.
Generally, with regards to children, they will push boundaries as it is human nature to do so. It is my opinion that it is the responsibility of parents to ensure that they instill a reasonable set of ethical boundaries as part of this.
Gaz
-- Stop your grinnin' and drop your linen...they're everywhere!!!
December 8, 2016 at 8:59 am
Tom, you make good points. I think I'm more in agreement with you that a certification body would be more appropriate than insisting upon just a CS degree and only a CS degree. And it should be an independent, non-vendor specify certification body too. Microsoft, Google, Apple, Cisco, IBM etc. certification is all good and so on and may be worth pursuing, but for standards compliant apart from any vendor's specify tools. I would be very interested in taking and passing such a certification. I want to test myself and see how well I do, or don't do. Secondarily it would be interesting to see how others do.
Your reasons for disagreeing with me on "the money side" as you put it, have me thinking. I'm not wedded to my opinion on this. 🙂
Kindest Regards, Rod Connect with me on LinkedIn.
Viewing 14 posts - 46 through 58 (of 58 total)
You must be logged in to reply to this topic. Login to reply