The Power Crisis
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Refreshing beverage? That's a "refreshing" idea - too bad that icy-cold hydrogen doesn't go down as well as ice tea.
I scanned the blackout documents you suggested, and they address only the failure of the electrical system (including the human element), not what was causing the loads or the ocillations (other than the loss of an Ontario plant). Both the Candian and the US documents were looking to place responsibility for the outages, and to determine what grid changes would be needed to prevent such an outage in the future. An inherent assumption in both reports was that the load being carried was "normal", and that assumption is what I'm calling into question.
Grant you, my information on system load being from air conditioning (4 pm on an August day in the midwest...) comes from an ASES article in their magazine "Solar Today", and they do have an agenda. Yet logic dictates that if electrical loads are being met locally, the interties will not be carrying such a large load, thus preventing the overheating and sagging of the power lines that allowed three major lines to touch trees in the right-of-way and trip the protective relays. Which contributed to destabilizing the grid.
As I said before, there is probably not one "perfect" solution out there to our energy needs. But local "small scale" production of energy would definitely help extend the life of an aged electrical grid, possibly to the point of making upgrades to it less expensive or unnecessary (other than regular expected maintenance, of course). The trillion-dollar price tag has me hiding my wallet.
Here there be dragons...,Steph Brown
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As shushy would quote..
"Everyone has an agenda, except me.", MC
There are perfect solutions.
a) We stop using power all together, and return to nomadic 'peaceful' (sarcasm) tribes. I think everyone should go back to being reformed druidic hedgerow worshipers.
b) Go continental with the grid, There are about a billion people in North America. Divide a Billion by a trillion, its a 1000 dollars each for cheap power to run our cars, homes and businesses. This assumes cars go direct to electric and or hydrogen. I have references for current pending models from most of the auto makers. There are many links to many great cars that run strictly electric. Current models 90k gets you a 'fine ride' as the kids would say, that will do 0-60 in 3 seconds, hows that for 'this anit your dad's oldsmobile'.
c) This is where I get grandoise; We import hydro carbons from outer space, the 20 km diameter lakes of hydrocarbons on Titan will do just nicely. First, we need spaceships that wont launch because of the odd chance rain cloud might appear; and for that matter actually travel to 'outer space'. I'm getting fantastical at this point, but if you see where i'm going; In our little corner of the supposed infinite universe there's enough latent energy to power 'anything' for as long as our star burns anyway.
You need the economies of scale to reap the benifits of power distrubution. I think you are miscalculating the service costs of local generation, by for example not including the costs in energy to create and distrubuting those 'devices' to the consumer, to stores, and all the processes that go into supporting them.
Once you factor in those and probably other costs including the eventual disposal, into providing everyone a high efficient solar panel array, you will see that you are only shifting the energy usage to another location, and even with current manufacturing processes as efficent as they are, I put forward that they are more lossy and costly just putting the money back into supporting a very high efficent power grid.
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a) I'll go with the druidic hedgerow worshippers - I think they had better candles than we can get now days.
b) Not every one of those billion people has $1K to spare (or $90K for a car...)
c) Let's talk economies of scale and the hidden creation, distribution, fuel costs on this one! Whew!
Economies of scale may not be that far away with renewable energies. Germany and Japan, just to name two nations, are heavily investing in these as primary power sources with a goal of reducing reliance on nuclear to nothing (over the course of many years). I'll leave it to the "peaceful experts" to do the calculations on create, distrubute, benefit to economy of local jobs, and so forth. There are some compelling arguments out there. Another factor to consider is life-expectancy for the product (grid versus PV, to keep it simple). I'm told the original solar panels built in the '60s are still producing power today with no maintenance required (I'd bet the inverters have been changed out, though...)
Back to Steve's original thought of using renewables to run data centers, there are many ways to produce power. For a data center or server farm, critical needs would seem to be a constant and "clean" power supply (by clean I mean without major voltage fluxuations!) A backup system powered by a combination of batteries and renewables could probably be put in place within 6 months (at a guess; I don't do solar systems for a living, and the panels are backorded a lot these days). I just don't see that trillion-dollar electric/hydrogen/soda-pop system going in quite that fast.
It would be fun to gather up some numbers on actual system costs; I'll bet my renewables wins out in the "permits needed and cost" category!
Here there be dragons...,Steph Brown
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Re: b) obviously others will pay more and some will pay less. At 90k thats pretty good for a first run. And more moderate technologies for vehicles will make for a rerelase of the EV-1 not an issue.
Nuclear is clean, at least in Canadian plants, you see the plants are you referring to are stage one plants while Canadian plants are stage 2 and the ones in the article are stage 4, i didnt read up on them, but i've accepted the stage 2 or newer are very stable and safe.
I doubt anyone would push away a 40K car that ran on eletricity or hyrdogen fuel cells. I have a question, what do you drive? Or is it one of the more wasteful vehicles out there: the deisel bus.
See, I lived a good deal of my youth in the idealistic bubblegum rose coloured glasses world of a net neutral consumption / production power situation. Maybe i'm jaded or more pragmatic now, it is unfortunate but as for collecting and generating power, hydrocarbons and nuclear fuel, there is nothing close for efficency. And in truth, maybe that solar will win out; but I bet we will see the investment in a more dynamic and far reaching supergrid and large scale solar or wind production way before the consumer starts to make any significant dent into the production cycle of power.
If you like roads, hospitals, fire stations, libraries, schools and such, the city coffers need to be fed somehow to pay for those 'luxeries' and selling electricity is huge business and revenue stream for governments.
I dare anyone to go to their superiors and tell them that the most important data and life blood of the company will be running off of solar power and batteries. It might be used for office lighting or those 'cutesy' pot lights people put near their garden gnomes. I'm guessing garden gnomes are afraid of the dark.
And notice, Japan and Germany's economies are pretty much stagnating, you might have just proven that the investment of such is bad for the long term standard of living in those countries.
And if you are really looking for a renewable source, i've always argued geo-thermal is better choice, not much in the way of cloud cover affecting the molten core of the earth. And from what i hear California has half a dozen massive plants already using that same technology.
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And Steve i'm insensed somewhat by the title of this thread. It should read
There is no power crisis.
And the enviornmentals is will not dispute that there is more than enough power available.
They just don't like the way we get it.
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It's a crisis in spots
. Depends on where you are? If you're in Queens, you have a crisis.I think you've made some great points. There is plenty of power, we just need to rethink how we get it. I'm going to do something here at the ranch. I've got my small scale windmill priced at around $1000 to supplement the barn. I'd like to see if I can get that thing running 100% natural and go from there.
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But Steve think of the birds and bats ....
ALTAMONT PASS
about 4700 birds a year die there
and tens of 1000's of bats every year....
Steve dont kill Big Bird...
Wind turbines taking toll on birds of prey
By John Ritter, USA TODAYALTAMONT PASS, Calif. — The big turbines that stretch for miles along these rolling, grassy hills have churned out clean, renewable electricity for two decades in one of the nation's first big wind-power projects.
But for just as long, massive fiberglass blades on the more than 4,000 windmills have been chopping up tens of thousands of birds that fly into them, including golden eagles, red-tailed hawks, burrowing owls and other raptors.
After years of study but little progress reducing bird kills, environmentalists have sued to force turbine owners to take tough corrective measures. The companies, at risk of federal prosecution, say they see the need to protect birds. "Once we finally realized that this issue was really serious, that we had to solve it to move forward, we got religion," says George Hardie, president of G3 Energy.
The size of the annual body count — conservatively put at 4,700 birds — is unique to this sprawling, 50-square-mile site in the Diablo Mountains between San Francisco and the agricultural Central Valley because it spans an international migratory bird route regulated by the federal government. The low mountains are home to the world's highest density of nesting golden eagles.
Scientists don't know whether the kills reduce overall bird populations but worry that turbines, added to other factors, could tip a species into decline. "They didn't realize it at the time, but it was just a really bad place to build a wind farm," says Grainger Hunt, an ecologist with the Peregrine Fund who has studied eagles at Altamont.
Across the USA — from Cape Cod to the Southern California desert — new wind projects, touted as emission-free options to oil- and gas-fueled power plants, face resistance over wildlife, noise and vistas. The clashes come as wind-energy demand is growing, in part because 17 states have passed laws requiring that some of their future energy — 20% in California by 2010 — come from renewable sources.
Environmental groups, fans in principle of "green" power, are caught in the middle. "We've been really clear all along, we absolutely support wind energy as long as facilities are appropriately sited," says Jeff Miller, Bay Area wildlands coordinator for the Center for Biological Diversity, which took 12 companies to court.
Wind energy is a tiny but fast-growing share of U.S. energy — 0.4%, up from less than 0.1% five years ago. Since November, when Congress reinstated a key tax credit for wind producers, the industry is poised to expand by as much as a third this year, the American Wind Energy Association says.
In 2004, wind generated enough electricity to power 1.6 million households, the association says. Altamont's turbines are the nation's No. 2 producer. Few energy experts think environmental concerns will discourage wind development long-term because the tradeoff is too appealing.
"When you opt for wind turbines, you don't opt for pollution that harms children and crops from fossil-fuel power plants," says Dan Kammen, an energy professor at the University of California-Berkeley.
But windmills — derisively dubbed by some "toilet brushes in the sky" — draw fire when they're planned in areas prized for their pristine landscapes:
• Cape Cod groups are fighting what they call visual pollution from 130 turbines, each taller than the Statue of Liberty, sought for Nantucket Sound. Fishermen fear loss of prime fishing grounds from the USA's first offshore project.
• Rep. Nick Rahall, D-W.Va., asked the Government Accountability Office to study the effects more windmills would have in the Appalachians. Research found that existing turbines killed up to 4,000 bats on Backbone Mountain last year.
• In the Flint Hills of Kansas, the Audubon Society worries that windmills could despoil views in one of America's few remaining stands of native tallgrass prairie and harm habitats of migrating prairie birds.
• Acting Gov. Richard Codey last month ordered a 15-month wind-power moratorium on the New Jersey shore, where the desire to preserve Atlantic views has collided with plans for offshore turbines near Ocean City and other sites.
Altamont Pass bird kills have been known for years, but turbine owners and federal regulators ignored them except to urge more research, says Miller of the Center for Biological Diversity. But a California Energy Commission study in August found bird fatalities much higher than had been thought and laid out steps to limit them.
At the same time, 20-year-old county permits were up for renewal, and the U.S. Fish and Wildlife Service decided to crack down. "Twenty years has just been too long to resolve this problem," says Scott Heard, the agency's chief Northern California enforcement agent.
Fish and Wildlife can prosecute those responsible for kills under federal laws that protect eagles and migratory birds.
The center's lawsuit was withdrawn but filed again in November because the wind companies' bird-protection plan was "not a serious attempt," Miller says. The center is appealing Alameda County's approval of new permits.
The state study's key recommendation would be costly for companies: replace old turbines with fewer, larger-capacity modern ones, relocate them away from favorite bird haunts and build them more than twice as high so blades rotate above the birds' flight paths.
Environmentalists want 3-year permits that can be renewed only if companies show progress. The companies, citing financial pressures, have proposed at least 13-year permits and want their own timetable for installing new turbines.
Alameda County is trying to broker a deal. "We can't put them out of business by telling them to take out all their old turbines," says assistant planning director Steven Buckley.
Turbine owners say Altamont's 4,000-plus windmills are outdated and eventually will be replaced by 1,000 or fewer new ones. G3 Energy, a small Altamont operator, is replacing 180 obsolete turbines with 38 larger ones.
Others are more cautious. FPL Energy, Altamont's biggest operator with 2,000 turbines, wants the study's findings tested. "Certainly the turbine owners hope fewer, taller turbines reduce collisions," says FPL spokesman Steve Stengel. "But there has not been research done to verify that."
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Can’t argue with b); it taps into my statement earlier that those with money and commitment need to “invest” in new technologies so the price will come down for those whose pockets are less well padded.
Sorry, can’t agree with you on the nuclear being clean. The waste product is still radioactive, and the plants are still run by mere mortals, who are fallible after all. If my PV panels suffer catastrophic failure, no one would realize it but me. Can’t say the same about a nuke plant!
I wouldn’t push away a 40K car, I would expect to drive it away. Did you have one to donate to my worthy cause?
It could replace my 14K 1990 Toyota Corolla station wagon that gets 36 city, 40 hiway. (But I’ll keep the motorcycle that is my usual ride – 38 – 46 mpg; I haven’t tracked it lately.) I really should switch to my 70 mpg cycle (Honda, needs a new mirror) until my knee heals and I can start riding my bicycle to work again.Hey, I like rose colored glasses; they look good on me! (Can we get an emoticon for that?) Don’t make the assumption that only consumers will put solar on rooftops. The price has come down to where it is close enough in cost-per-killowatt that utilities may consider doing so. The permitting costs alone for new plants, not to mention the timeline, add huge costs to large coal, NG or hydro plants (not to mention the environmental concerns). Power companies already deal with right-of-way contracts where power lines cross private property. It’s not a huge jump from that to rooftop right-of-way – imagine your local power company coming in, putting solar on the roof, giving you a discount on your power bill (to pay for the rooftop space – perhaps some percentage of the power produced). You get a lower bill, they get generation that is online quickly (within 2 months, depending on panel backorder), and no public meetings or court costs for them. I wonder how much PV capacity could be put up for the cost of a single coal plant? Maybe ASES or the DOE has those figures…
I’m not too worried about the government; they’ve always found a way to tax us for the public services they maintain.
Solar (PV and batteries) can run a great deal more than pot lights (gnomes not withstanding, and what ARE you growing in that garden?) If you return to Steve’s original editorial, and the power outages, as a backup system it certainly makes sense. After all, a UPS ain’t nothing but a battery! And as New Orleans showed, it can be tough getting gas or other fuels for generators during natural disasters. What is comforting about "your power is produced 3 states away, so if the lines go down you're toast?"
Sorry, you can’t place renewables as the cause for economic downturns or upturns – economies are more complex that that. It’s like saying the US economy is good be cause Subway is selling lots of sandwiches – it just isn’t relevant on a large scale.
Geo-thermal is a great choice if you’re in an area where it is easily accessible. Anywhere near active mountain ranges (i.e. Ring of Fire on the west coast) it’s probably feasible. However, I don’t think my neighbors would appreciate it if I drilled a 5-mile-deep hole in my back yard. We’ve got Mount St Helens for a volcano already; I don’t need one in my back yard! I’ve been reading up on earth-heating for homes, and it has some issues that make me a little uncomfortable with it (long term maintenance in particular). I haven’t read about the California plants yet, but up around Fairbanks AK they’re building some pilot plants - one a t Chena Hot Springs. If I recall correctly, it’s in conjunction with the <st1
laceType>University</st1laceType> of <st1laceName>Anchorage</st1laceName>. It makes as much sense up there as solar does, given the differing daylight hours between summer and winter!And by the way, the newer utility-size wind turbines spin much slower than the old ones, so bird kills are waaay down. I’ll have to review my magazine articles to see if any studies are referenced, but here’s an “industry” website http://www.awea.org/ and an interesting article on the EPA website http://www.epa.gov/ne/eco/energy/re_wind.html for your perusal. I don’t think this size of turbine is what Steve has in mind for his home; the cost is a bit prohibitive! The home-sized turbines don’t usually impact birds or bats, but it depends on the design. So Steve, I say GO FOR IT! (Big Bird is overrated)
Here there be dragons...,Steph Brown
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a) big bird is not over rated.... but c is for cookie NOT carrot... and thats good enough for me...
b) nuclear is relatively clean, and radioactivity is bad but a quantifable risk which is easily managed.
c) If I start buying you a car, then there ends up being some sort of reverse onus or supposition that i'm getting something in return... i wouldn't want anyone to think any impropriety, if only for the wish not to sully sqlcentral and the jedi council in such salacious situation.
You should take it easy on knees...
d) I make no assumptions... if I spend 3000 dollars on solar panels which only decrease my electric bill by 10% and that only amounts to $20/month how long till i recoup my expenses? Another detraction is government consumer protection where up here in Cnada, I'm rebated if the hydro company makes too much money... I didnt realise there was a such a thing... too much money...
e) There are current UPS's that run off hydrogen cells APC sells them... so I argue for running hydrogen dispensing stations everywhere... they have found that water contains alot of hydrogen... should make power not much an issue unless you are in Reno.
Subway sucks ( note SQLCentral doesnt not condone nor support my assertion... they might even really like Subway.. those leftist pinko members of SQLServerCentral anyway.. real men eat At Arby's and New York Fries).... they purport low fat yeah low fat... no cheese, no mayo... theres not much point living if you cant have cheese or mayo... its like having a DVD player and no sunlight to power it....
Ring of Fire... i think i saw that in Lord of The Rings. johnny cash had some interesting things to say about the ring of fire and I think there are medicated pads for the other kind..... Geo thermal does not require 'liquid hot magma and sharks with fricken lasers on their head ' to be effective... any change of 10-15 degrees is fine for cooling...
say 25 to 10 C from room temps to ground temps... it might not be as fast as central air.. (which i do have ).. though i've stopped leaving all the windows and doors of the house open ever .. moreso because to many flies and wayward neighbours coming in... than the waste of power...
So you assert that some bird death is ok..
.. how many and what's acceptable really... someone who thinks its ok to shred birds with propellers wouldnt need air conditioning.. for they would be cold enough .... 
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"Sorry, you can’t place renewables as the cause for economic downturns or upturns – economies are more complex that that. It’s like saying the US economy is good be cause Subway is selling lots of sandwiches – it just isn’t relevant on a large scale."
News reports and economists make assumptions like that all the time.
There are key market indicators it may not be 'subway' but food markets are one of them.
One further revision to my above Subway comment is I eat at subway a few times a month with cheese and mayo on my sub... and they are ok. I am insensed by their premise and marketing that suggest they are the 'healthful' choice... when in reality thier food has just as much fat as most other meals from most other fast food restaurants... just don't try and bait and switch... its disengenous... and that 'grinds my gears'
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I'm hoping for a vertical windmill. There's a company in WY doing the, but no residential model. Saw a company in MD, but can't find them now, but that was a $3k model. They spin slower and don't have the bird kills or noise.
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Steve: vertical I haven't seen yet; now I must search the Internet for more info! The slower spin rate (for any type of wind turbine) seems to be a key for lower noise, and slim to none chance of birdies taking a beating. I think we'll see more design changes to address these issues, too.
How much clearance from other buildings is required? Wind power in residential areas (like where I live) used to be a no-win situation because of the vagaries of wind that was affected by other buildings; I'm wondering if a vertical would do better.
GPF: that last missive had me howling
good thing no one was home but the cats (they're used to it)a) (snicker! And not the candy bar)
b) “nuclear is relatively clean, and radioactivity is bad but a quantifable risk which is easily managed.” Hmm, okay, define easily managed. Right now the waste is piling up (no pun intended) at the plants here in the US, and they’re running out of room to keep it. Meanwhile, the <st1
laceName>Yucca</st1laceName> <st1laceType>Mountain</st1laceType> repository is running late, has had far too many instances of corruption of data (i.e. there are problems with the site they are trying to cover up, but those darned whistle-blowers just won’t keep quiet), and even if it were safe to store the materials there, the cost will be huge (albeit spread across the taxpayer base; yet not calculated into the cost of the electricity produced) and it will remain radioactive for at least 10,000 years.c) Jedi council not withstanding, buy me a car and I’ll buy you a bird – a BIG bird.
d) I’m glad to know someone has finally defined “too much money”, since that question comes up a lot down here in the south. Wish we could get that applied to the oil companies…
e) “There are current UPS's that run off hydrogen cells APC sells them...” Now there’s a new piece of info for me. How long do they run in an off-grid situation? Disasters of the natural (or even the un-natural) kind often mean disruption of supply lines, so longevity versus the ability to recharge would need to be reviewed. Hydrogen is, I think, about to become viable for more than batteries, but there are two problems : 1) supply infrastructure does not yet exist. 2) Too many suppliers want to make it out of natural gas, which does not keep it in the renewable category (but does cut down on pollution at the tailpipe; but I’ve not heard about the plants where it is produced – where does all the carbon go?) Each time you change an energy source from one form to another, you lose 30% of the power potential – rather wasteful. Using water, and powering the conversion process with solar makes more sense, and allows you to use non-potable water – I think it’s a novel idea for our sewage treatment plants. Just think, if they could capture the methane from the break-down process, and hydrogen from the excess water, and sell the sludge as fertilizer, maybe my sewer bill would go away and the government could make money instead of taxing me!
“Subway sucks” … We don’t have New York Fries over here on the west coast, but I do like the Arby’s seasoned fries. Here in Seattle they still let you put mayo and cheese on the subs (tho personally I can’t stand mayo, so I leave it off). Glad to hear you can still get it up north.
We don’t have so many sharks here (although the six-gill gets pretty bit, but they are too shy to be useful), so we put the lasers on the dogfish, a shark relative. They hunt in packs on full moon nights.
Geo thermal also works for heating, given the same temperature differences, and water sources can sometimes be used as well, depending on the exact situation. Glad to hear you’ve learned how to keep the neighbors out. The flies will find another way in; they’re very intelligent.
“So you assert that some bird death is ok…” I always wondered why I don’t have air conditioning in the house, and now I know! Is it okay to chew up bats, but not birds? The bats may be more endangered (depending on location). My neighbors used to get upset with my bird feeder, because the birds would leave “presents” on their car, so they might not have minded the wind turbines. I just moved the bird feeder to a different location to change the flight path.
(And I’m still looking for more info on bird deaths and new turbine design; I may have to email ASES to see if they have any new info on that). And the birds aren’t dead, they’re just sleeping, and the feathers are fluffed up like that to keep them warm…
Here there be dragons...,Steph Brown
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I know...... the birds are pining for the fjords..
Happy to have made you laugh...
http://www.computerworld.com/securitytopics/security/recovery/story/0,10801,102480,00.html
The Integrated Fuel Cells system, which APC showed off at its headquarters, includes up to three 10-kilowatt fuel cell "stacks" built by APC, a DC-to-DC converter that boosts the DC voltage so that power can be routed through a UPS, and a management console accessible via a Web browser. From the front, each fuel cell module appears as a sealed black metal box. At the rear of the rack, power cables were visible, as was a clear drainage tube, about 1 in. in diameter, that emptied waste water into a small container on the floor.
Fuel cell systems generate water vapor as a byproduct, so data centers will need a drain or container to trap that, said Hunt, although APC plans to add a system that automatically captures waste water and removes it from the room.
Because the fuel cell modules require up to 20 seconds to come up to full power, the system also requires a separate backup UPS that bridges the power gap in the initial moments of an outage. Fuel cells also don't respond well to fluctuating power demands, so the backup batteries also "work like a shock absorber between high and low steps," Hunt said. The fuel cell system also continuously charges the batteries when running.
APC's InfraStruXure with Integrated Fuel Cells backup system fits into a 42u rack. A single 10-kilowatt fuel cell module generates a total of 13 kilowatts of usable power, with 3 kilowatts used to recharge the batteries and the rest available to power IT equipment.
The InfraStruXure system consumes fuel from standard hydrogen gas "T cylinders." The cylinders, which are 60 in. high by 9 in. in diameter, must be stored outside of the building and connected to the data center with stainless steel tubing. One cylinder can run a 10-kilowatt fuel cell pack for 79 minutes, APC said, with runtimes extended by adding more tanks.
A minimum of three cylinders is required to achieve N+1 redundancy, Hunt said, adding that for a 30-kilowatt system, he expects users to connect between nine and 10 cylinders. While fuel cell technology is expensive, cylinders are not. T cylinders typically cost around $30, he said.
The system is available now and sells for $25,000 per 10-kilowatt module, plus an installation and setup charge. That will typically run about $25,000, meaning a 30-kilowatt system costs about $100,000, Hunt said.
The system also requires a chilled water supply to cool the fuel cell system, and an air handling system to exhaust air from the rack outside of the data center. The air handling system is designed to ensure that any water vapor or hydrogen byproducts from the fuel cell process are ventilated outside of the data center. Water cooling is required in part because fuel cells are only about 50% efficient, Hunt says.
While APC demonstrated a working model in its labs, it does not currently have any early adopters using or testing the system. "We have units on order, [but] we don't have any named accounts we're sharing yet," Hunt says.
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Now that is very interesting! There is still an issue, for natural disasters, of getting replacement fuel cyclinders, but for your average (or not so average) power outage due to system failure, it would work rather well. And if you capture the "waster water" and use it for other purposes like watering the planters, the waste stream goes down Then if the hydrogen fuel is processed from water rather than NG, and assuming you run that processing plant on solar rather than fossil fuels, you've got a win-win-win situation. At least, that's what the renewable folks are hoping for. And if they can get the efficiency rate up from 50% - eehah!
http://www.treehugger.com/files/2006/04/common_misconce.php and http://www.awea.org/faq/sagrillo/swbirds.html are two websites on bird mortality that are worth looking at, and they de-myth-ify the "bird kill" info a little bit - and also compare wind turbine bird deaths with deaths caused by other man-made objects. Even though they're not "current" articles, the information is still solid.
Here there be dragons...,Steph Brown
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4700 birds a year.... thats not a myth... but its alot of bird spam
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