August 19, 2011 at 9:55 am
Please don't misuse the phrase "begs the question". It doesn't mean what you think it means.
I would tell the company that signed the contract that two colors is not "a small tweak", and neither is changing one type of pencil into six.
August 19, 2011 at 9:58 am
David,
Yup, you're right, on 'begs the question.' Slipped through a couple editors, so good catch.
Thanks,
B
August 19, 2011 at 10:22 am
swellguy (8/19/2011)
David,Yup, you're right, on 'begs the question.' Slipped through a couple editors, so good catch.
Thanks,
B
You're welcome. Thanks for the kind reply. I'm just trying (probably in vain) to help a few phrases keep their original meaning!
August 19, 2011 at 4:37 pm
I really enjoyed this editorial. I brought back an memory of something similar at the beginning of my career. Scope creep can be very expensive or even deadly to a company.
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August 21, 2011 at 9:00 am
swellguy (8/18/2011)
I think you articulate well a point I was trying to make. The poor pencil maker could have said 'no,' and explained the business reasons for his refusal, at any time.
Was that really the point? If so I don't get it. Change is good. Change is the norm. IT folks shouldn't be saying no to change - they ought to be able to accommodate constant change and adjust their deliverables and working methods accordingly.
If the Pencil analogy is supposed to correspond to software development then perhaps the problem is that the pencil maker started out with a waterfall-style, fixed scope approach when the project might have benefited from a more iterative approach. Agile Principles emphasise that change is to be welcomed, even late in development and should be coupled with good communication and working closely with the customer every day.
August 21, 2011 at 10:38 am
David,
I'm a fan of agile myself-- that being the method I've been working under for the last few years. I wouldn't say that the primary theme of the work is that implementors should frequently say no-- but I would hope that it underlines the need for frequent, communication.
As someone noted above, and I think it is a valid criticism, the best design method in the world doesn't work if the customer cannot (or will not) articulate a solid specification.
Thanks for reading, I've enjoyed all the different perspectives,
Brad
August 22, 2011 at 8:38 am
David Walker-278941 (8/19/2011)
swellguy (8/19/2011)
David,Yup, you're right, on 'begs the question.' Slipped through a couple editors, so good catch.
Thanks,
B
You're welcome. Thanks for the kind reply. I'm just trying (probably in vain) to help a few phrases keep their original meaning!
This being completely off the original topic, but since I like the phrase, and I didn't see anything wrong with the way it was used, what is it supposed to mean?
Kenneth FisherI was once offered a wizards hat but it got in the way of my dunce cap.--------------------------------------------------------------------------------For better, quicker answers on T-SQL questions, click on the following... http://www.sqlservercentral.com/articles/Best+Practices/61537/[/url]For better answers on performance questions, click on the following... http://www.sqlservercentral.com/articles/SQLServerCentral/66909/[/url]Link to my Blog Post --> www.SQLStudies.com[/url]
August 22, 2011 at 9:18 am
Kenneth Fisher-475792 (8/22/2011)
David Walker-278941 (8/19/2011)
swellguy (8/19/2011)
David,Yup, you're right, on 'begs the question.' Slipped through a couple editors, so good catch.
Thanks,
B
You're welcome. Thanks for the kind reply. I'm just trying (probably in vain) to help a few phrases keep their original meaning!
This being completely off the original topic, but since I like the phrase, and I didn't see anything wrong with the way it was used, what is it supposed to mean?
I too was unaware that this phrase was being used incorrectly so I looked it up on Wikipedia. If I read the definition correctly then "begging the question" actually means to "assume the initial point". It is a logical falacy where a person is "begging" the listener to accept the "question" (proposition) before the labor of logic is undertaken. In other words, trying to argue for a conclusion when the initial question is only assumed and not wholly understood. If anyone has a clearer explanation of this, please share with the rest of us! 🙂
The phrase "Raises the question" is actually much more appropriate for the context of this article.
August 22, 2011 at 11:38 am
Kenneth Wymore (8/22/2011)
Kenneth Fisher-475792 (8/22/2011)
David Walker-278941 (8/19/2011)
swellguy (8/19/2011)
David,Yup, you're right, on 'begs the question.' Slipped through a couple editors, so good catch.
Thanks,
B
You're welcome. Thanks for the kind reply. I'm just trying (probably in vain) to help a few phrases keep their original meaning!
This being completely off the original topic, but since I like the phrase, and I didn't see anything wrong with the way it was used, what is it supposed to mean?
I too was unaware that this phrase was being used incorrectly so I looked it up on Wikipedia. If I read the definition correctly then "begging the question" actually means to "assume the initial point". It is a logical falacy where a person is "begging" the listener to accept the "question" (proposition) before the labor of logic is undertaken. In other words, trying to argue for a conclusion when the initial question is only assumed and not wholly understood. If anyone has a clearer explanation of this, please share with the rest of us! 🙂
The phrase "Raises the question" is actually much more appropriate for the context of this article.
If thats true then I think half or more of the technical requirements I've read recently are "begging the question".
Don't you love how one of these discussions can get sidetracked?
Kenneth
Kenneth FisherI was once offered a wizards hat but it got in the way of my dunce cap.--------------------------------------------------------------------------------For better, quicker answers on T-SQL questions, click on the following... http://www.sqlservercentral.com/articles/Best+Practices/61537/[/url]For better answers on performance questions, click on the following... http://www.sqlservercentral.com/articles/SQLServerCentral/66909/[/url]Link to my Blog Post --> www.SQLStudies.com[/url]
August 22, 2011 at 11:56 am
Yeah I think a good number of projects result in something completely different than what was originally asked for due to assumptions. And we wonder why user acceptance is never 100%.... 🙂
August 23, 2011 at 4:00 pm
jfmartin (8/18/2011)
I understand but... is it only in IT that we have a lot of changes ?I think its the same thing everywhere, in construction, transportation, etc.
For me, its more than a project management problem.
I don't thing its a good idea to defend IT with this type of example if we compare to other industry.
IT is still relative new in industry.
Good question and I think you partly answer the question by noting that IT is a relatively new industry. However, just as the article illustrates, changes tend to be characterized as 'simple' by the end users. I'm willing to bet that most mature industries ... take construction (it's been around for centuries) don't often have clients telling the general contractor to knock out a wall after the house has been built and expect it to have a marginal impact because they have an adequate understanding of the wall and it's function.
August 24, 2011 at 2:54 pm
cdonlan 18448 (8/23/2011)
jfmartin (8/18/2011)
I understand but... is it only in IT that we have a lot of changes ?I think its the same thing everywhere, in construction, transportation, etc.
For me, its more than a project management problem.
I don't thing its a good idea to defend IT with this type of example if we compare to other industry.
IT is still relative new in industry.
Good question and I think you partly answer the question by noting that IT is a relatively new industry. However, just as the article illustrates, changes tend to be characterized as 'simple' by the end users. I'm willing to bet that most mature industries ... take construction (it's been around for centuries) don't often have clients telling the general contractor to knock out a wall after the house has been built and expect it to have a marginal impact because they have an adequate understanding of the wall and it's function.
I'm in the process of having a bathroom added to my house. The scope creep so far has caused it to go from a 12-14k project to a 20k project. And it was caused by such simple things as our contractor discovered that the floor sloped more than he though, and so it took more to level it. Or in another case we realized both my wife and the contractor had forgotten the cost of the toilet. So I have to say that scope creep can happen anywhere, and probably in any industry.
That being said I think it is somewhat different in the IT industry. The level of complexity tends to be far higher, and its harder to bring all interested parties to the table to plan. Not to mention that if you are building a 10 million dollar overpass, its not unreasonable to spend 6 months planning. A lot of times IT projects are done with days, hours, or sometimes even no planing. A lot of times we plan for the project as we are actually writing the code. And of course as stated above, IT is a somewhat new industry.
Kenneth
Kenneth FisherI was once offered a wizards hat but it got in the way of my dunce cap.--------------------------------------------------------------------------------For better, quicker answers on T-SQL questions, click on the following... http://www.sqlservercentral.com/articles/Best+Practices/61537/[/url]For better answers on performance questions, click on the following... http://www.sqlservercentral.com/articles/SQLServerCentral/66909/[/url]Link to my Blog Post --> www.SQLStudies.com[/url]
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