March 24, 2010 at 12:24 pm
GSquared (3/23/2010)
When my dad was in high school, they had a class that had the specific purpose of preparing the students for their standard tests (I think it was the SATs, but I wouldn't swear to that). They all had scores that were well above average, because of the class. Did that mean they were actually better educated than their peers who didn't take that class? Not if by "better educated" you mean "better prepared for adult life as productive members of society".
Apparently it prepared him for the MS Certs 🙂 He knows exactly what to do to pass them now!
blandry (3/23/2010)
Let me ask the general "you"... Would you get on an airplane where the pilot simply paid a bundle to take an exam that then says "Pilot" after their name? Or would you prefer someone who has flown a plane thousands of miles.
🙂 When I got my pilot's license, I had a book with every possible question on the test in it, and it was (and I assume still is) quite legal to study from. I did quite well on the test. (but yes - there is a practical exam too)
I'm certified for both 2K and 2K5, will be working on 2K8 this year, and I'll admit that I chuckled a little when coming out of the 2K5 BI ITP test since I just took it on a lark without any real study and we don't use SSAS and SSIS much.
The certs have gotten my foot in the door, but when they ask I always tell them it just means I test well. Like many of you, I use it as a structured study tool to keep me up to speed on features I don't use every day.
Chad
March 24, 2010 at 1:55 pm
When I got my pilot's license, I had a book with every possible question on the test in it, and it was (and I assume still is) quite legal to study from. I did quite well on the test. (but yes - there is a practical exam too)
This is true with most standardized exams from LSAT, GMAT and GRE exams add in the colleges that professors leave past tests at the school library. The software complaints are more from the elites trying to keep people out.
Kind regards,
Gift Peddie
March 25, 2010 at 6:39 am
I agree that the current certification infrastructure has an immense chasm between the "common" certs (MCTS, MCITP) and the MCM. I too would have a hard time justifying spending three weeks away from home, not to mention tens of thousands of dollars, for the opportunity to go through the MCM training. Would I do it if the stars aligned and work/home/monetary concerns were not a problem? Absolutely. But I just don't see that happening.
I've long been an advocate of a bridge certification, something between the MCITP and the MCM. There is a huge leap from the former to the latter, and it's a vastly underserved portion of the market (read: a good opportunity for the business savvy). I would like to see another organization - PASS, or perhaps even ACM - develop a program to fill this void.
Tim Mitchell, Microsoft Data Platform MVP
Data Warehouse and ETL Consultant
TimMitchell.net | @Tim_Mitchell | Tyleris.com
ETL Best Practices
March 25, 2010 at 7:15 am
As far as standard vs. proprietary: it depends.
If you need your work to be portable with a minimum of fuss, then you must write as standard a set of code as is possible (and compartmentalize those portions that must be nonstandard as best you can, for easy swapping).
If you need to wring every bit of performance out of _exactly_ your current setup, then you need to benchmark everything, and choose the best performing options. Further, you need to re-benchmark on every significant upgrade or change (Note: You don't know if the upgrade or change was significant until you benchmark). This is whether you're changing from DB A to DB B, or from DB A X.Y to DB A X.Y+1, or changing your mass storage, or changing what partition/filegroup you put certain indexes on.
If you don't have specific and overriding needs, I would propose that in any situation where the proprietary and the standard are equivalent to you, choose the standard. This is in the same lines as "Don't use index hints unless you need to" and the related "Let the database do its best; it tends to get better over time and updates, so what you tuned carefully before may no longer be the best later".
March 25, 2010 at 7:50 am
Gift Peddie (3/24/2010)
..... The software complaints are more from the elites trying to keep people out.
I suspect you're only half right. You may be right in saying that the complaints are mainly from the elites, but I suspect the reason they would complain is that they're trying to protect the value of the system by reducing the chances of someone "cheating" their way into the system. They have a reputation to protect. That reputation will be undermined if too many people can cheat their way in.
For best practices on asking questions, please read the following article: Forum Etiquette: How to post data/code on a forum to get the best help[/url]
March 25, 2010 at 7:53 am
Gift Peddie (3/24/2010)
When I got my pilot's license, I had a book with every possible question on the test in it, and it was (and I assume still is) quite legal to study from. I did quite well on the test. (but yes - there is a practical exam too)
This is true with most standardized exams from LSAT, GMAT and GRE exams add in the colleges that professors leave past tests at the school library. The software complaints are more from the elites trying to keep people out.
I have to disagree with you on this. I have issues with people using brain dumps to pass certification tests and I am not Microsoft certified. If you pass the test(s) because of working your way through various books and test kits that mirror (but don't use actual test questions/senerios) or because of experience then you have earned that recognition. If you pass the test because you memorized a bunch of questions and answers provided to you, then you don't.
March 25, 2010 at 8:00 am
Alvin Ramard (3/25/2010)
Gift Peddie (3/24/2010)
..... The software complaints are more from the elites trying to keep people out.
I suspect you're only half right. You may be right in saying that the complaints are mainly from the elites, but I suspect the reason they would complain is that they're trying to protect the value of the system by reducing the chances of someone "cheating" their way into the system. They have a reputation to protect. That reputation will be undermined if too many people can cheat their way in.
My reply did not include cheating yet that is what you are talking about, before Kaplan that runs most of these tests bought Transcenders most people were saying their tests should be banned because those tests contains most possible question combination. So the Lawyers, Doctors, and MBA the former regulated by the Government can use such tests but software cannot.
Kind regards,
Gift Peddie
March 25, 2010 at 8:02 am
I have to disagree with you on this. I have issues with people using brain dumps to pass certification tests and I am not Microsoft certified. If you pass the test(s) because of working your way through various books and test kits that mirror (but don't use actual test questions/senerios) or because of experience then you have earned that recognition. If you pass the test because you memorized a bunch of questions and answers provided to you, then you don't.
Read my post again I did not say cheating so your reply is not applicable to me.
Kind regards,
Gift Peddie
March 25, 2010 at 8:21 am
Gift Peddie (3/25/2010)
I have to disagree with you on this. I have issues with people using brain dumps to pass certification tests and I am not Microsoft certified. If you pass the test(s) because of working your way through various books and test kits that mirror (but don't use actual test questions/senerios) or because of experience then you have earned that recognition. If you pass the test because you memorized a bunch of questions and answers provided to you, then you don't.
Read my post again I did not say cheating so your reply is not applicable to me.
I have read it, several times. My interpretation of what you wrote still stands. To understand what you were trying to say, perhaps you should explain further what it is you meant.
March 25, 2010 at 8:21 am
Gift Peddie (3/25/2010)
Alvin Ramard (3/25/2010)
Gift Peddie (3/24/2010)
..... The software complaints are more from the elites trying to keep people out.
I suspect you're only half right. You may be right in saying that the complaints are mainly from the elites, but I suspect the reason they would complain is that they're trying to protect the value of the system by reducing the chances of someone "cheating" their way into the system. They have a reputation to protect. That reputation will be undermined if too many people can cheat their way in.
My reply did not include cheating yet that is what you are talking about, before Kaplan that runs most of these tests bought Transcenders most people were saying their tests should be banned because those tests contains most possible question combination. So the Lawyers, Doctors, and MBA the former regulated by the Government can use such tests but software cannot.
There are differences that matter.
Lawyers, doctors, and MBAs all spent a significant amount of time in school, presumably getting the knowledge they need to do their jobs. Lawyers are subject to bar review and being disbarred. Doctors carry malpractice insurance and routinely get sued if they mess up on their job. Pilots are subject to constant review and can easily lose their license for something as simple as overshooting their destination.
Software certification has to stand on its own. There is no licensing board for anything software related. DBAs, software engineers, programmers, etc., don't lose their license if they mess up. Nor do they carry malpractice insurance.
Because the bar for entry is set so low, software related certs do not have the luxury of assuming that someone taking the exam has a broad education and severe financial and legal incentive backing up their knowledge.
There are many people who memorize a few exam questions and answers, pass a certification exam, and get a cert, but who have absolutely zero ability to actually do the job the cert relates to. That isn't generally true for doctors, lawyers, pilots, et al. If a pilot fakes his way through the licensing, but doesn't actually know how to fly a plane, it'll be very obvious, and if it doesn't kill him, it'll get him permanently grounded. If someone were to fake his way into a medical practice, he'd be arrested and put in prison in very short order. A lawyer who memorized enough to pass a bar exam but who really can't do the job will be disbarred and sued in most states (and arrested in the others).
At the same time, a person who memorizes enough to get a SQL cert, but who can't do his job, will likely have very few consequences other than having to job hunt more frequently than most people consider comfortable.
I'm not accusing you of this, I'm explaining why I don't see having a negative reaction to brain dumps as "elitist". If expecting competence from people who claim to have it is elitist, then I'm elitist. If discouraging people from faking competence is elitist, then I'm elitist yet again.
I don't have any problem with a demonstrably competent person cramming for a certification exam. Many of the exams focus on aspects of the technology that routine, day-to-day experience won't usually give you, and thus studying for them makes sense. I do have a problem with the hundreds of people I've seen who have absolutely no competence at all, but who have walls covered in certificates, because of brain dumps.
- Gus "GSquared", RSVP, OODA, MAP, NMVP, FAQ, SAT, SQL, DNA, RNA, UOI, IOU, AM, PM, AD, BC, BCE, USA, UN, CF, ROFL, LOL, ETC
Property of The Thread
"Nobody knows the age of the human race, but everyone agrees it's old enough to know better." - Anon
March 25, 2010 at 8:46 am
There are many people who memorize a few exam questions and answers, pass a certification exam, and get a cert, but who have absolutely zero ability to actually do the job the cert relates to. That isn't generally true for doctors, lawyers, pilots, et al. If a pilot fakes his way through the licensing, but doesn't actually know how to fly a plane, it'll be very obvious, and if it doesn't kill him, it'll get him permanently grounded. If someone were to fake his way into a medical practice, he'd be arrested and put in prison in very short order. A lawyer who memorized enough to pass a bar exam but who really can't do the job will be disbarred and sued in most states (and arrested in the others).
There is no difference because these pilots gets hired are just not able to change aircraft model and vendors this is something I know.
The same with Doctors their friends cover up for them, they stay in school because they can pretend and others carry them. These Doctors kill people and Hospitals cover up for them and some just change states.
And I also know lawyers first hand prisons are full of innocents presented by incompetent lawyers.
At the same time, a person who memorizes enough to get a SQL cert, but who can't do his job, will likely have very few consequences other than having to job hunt more frequently than most people consider comfortable.
I'm not accusing you of this, I'm explaining why I don't see having a negative reaction to brain dumps as "elitist". If expecting competence from people who claim to have it is elitist, then I'm elitist. If discouraging people from faking competence is elitist, then I'm elitist yet again.
If you accuse me of that, then you have not read my posts here, TechNet and MSDN.
Kind regards,
Gift Peddie
March 25, 2010 at 9:03 am
Gift Peddie's argument strikes me as a good example of a fallacy of converse accident: elitists (i.e. those who wish to narrow the field of certified developers/technicians) will clearly look disfavorably on brain dumps, therefore anyone who looks disfavorably on brain dumps must be an elitist.
I've never been a big fan of certifications; I've had a couple myself over the years, but I don't actively pursue them, and I don't make them a focus of my hiring strategies. One of the reasons that their value is diluted is because of the availability of resources that "game" the system (allow a test taker to pass without having built the competencies the test is supposed to be certifying). I just can't be certain that someone with an MCITP is more competent than someone with more experience but no certification -- therefore I tend to disregard certifications (easier to do when hiring for a small shop where I'm not as reliant on HR to do front line filtering of job candidates).
However, I can see some arguments for such resources having validity. Personally, I'm a good test taker, so these certification processes play into my wheelhouse. I used to have Cisco certification. That was a difficult process, but I passed on my first try. I've met many network admins who could run circles around me on a Cisco router, but they'd failed the test several times. So, if you look at brain dumps as a method of leveling the playing field, that is, giving competent technicians who happen to be bad test takers a fighting chance, then that could be a positive.
But most folks are using them as a shortcut to putting in the real work, not unlike athletes who use performance enhancers (including ones that aren't technically banned). And you don't have to be elitist to disapprove of this practice. It cheapens the "game" for everyone.
March 25, 2010 at 9:30 am
Just realized: nothing says elitist like using the term "fallacy of converse accident.' Oh well.
March 25, 2010 at 9:49 am
I have read it, several times. My interpretation of what you wrote still stands. To understand what you were trying to say, perhaps you should explain further what it is you meant.
You are entitled to your interpretations, I am a developer who came to C# from Java exams in both languages few people can pass. The reason development exams comes with code, language and implementation questions. The first Datawarehouse exam was canceled because few people could pass it and the VC++ exams were also canceled because people were not passing braindumps included. There are exams people could not pass even open book.
The very comprehensive exam 70-536 is not going forward to Microsoft development 1040 that is VS2010 and .NET 4.0 because I was the C# resource and I have been here. I am assuming these exams are not generating enough to pay for the writers who understands the language on a much lower level.
Kind regards,
Gift Peddie
March 25, 2010 at 9:56 am
... I am assuming these exams are not generating enough to pay for the writers who understands the language on a much lower level.
When you say "on a much lower level," do you perchance mean "on as much higher level"? IMO anyone who wants to test someone else's skills ought to have higher understanding of the topic, as in "higher education."
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