April 5, 2010 at 2:43 pm
Just a quick note here. Can someone take a moment and summarize what they see as the consensus here and start a new thread in the Certifications forum? (http://www.sqlservercentral.com/Forums/Forum10-1.aspx)
Not to get off topic, but it would be great to get a summary and reset the debate periodically for people to follow along without having to read 60 pages of comments.
If you start a thread, please backlink to this one.
April 5, 2010 at 2:45 pm
Jason, i think MCM says that from experience...i mean of course given the cost and effort needed for MCM it is pretty unrealistic anyone under 10 years of work under their belt would try for it even less with employer sponsorship.I don't know how we can say it right away for a new cert...what i heard from my UG..some people who are managers said pretty emphatically that they would simply not hire an individual with only 1.5 years of expeirence to show as a senior DBA, regardless of how many certs that person had. They need a minimum of 3-5 years of solid experience for a senior Dba (am just using the word 'senior' to mean something more than entry level, not as a title). This is not an easy issue to table, rethinking perhaps there is no need for a TIS clause at all.
April 5, 2010 at 2:49 pm
CirquedeSQLeil (4/5/2010)
How about we move on to a new topic?I think the next viable topic would be to hash out how the review board should be handled.
So, how will we propose this particular requirement?
Well, to start off, there are several distinct areas to cover:
1. Who qualifies to be sit on the board?
2. Where will the board convene?
3. How often will the board convene?
4. What topics will be covered by the board?
5. How large should the board be?
I suggest that we actually tackle these individually. However, it might be best to just throw things out that can cover all of these for a little bit, to get the conversation going.
It has been mentioned that it would be good to have boards at events / conventions (i.e. PASS, SQL Saturday, etc.). I agree with this, but we need to ensure that there are enough different people there to run multiple boards so that we don't end up with one group of people where all they do is do boards... they probably want to see what all is going on at the event also. (Unless they are being paid to be there for the purpose of conducting a board...)
It has also been mentioned that the board should be local. And in cases where it becomes a hardship to attend a board, that provisions to conduct the board via web-cam be available. I like both of these suggestions, but recognize that in order to have quality people sit on the board, we may need for some of them to actually be there virtually via web-cam also.
My initial thought as to who should sit on the board was to use MVPs. However, I immediately shot this down... because MVP does NOT mean that they are knowledgeable of the product to that depth, but instead this is a recognition of their evangalism of the product. This isn't to say that we should exclude MVPs; but that depth of knowledge is more important. I'm certain that MVPs will be on this board, but that should not be the criteria. I think that every attempt should be made to get at least two board members physically at the board, with the board consisting of 4-5 persons.
Does someone that has earned this certification automatically qualify to sit on a board? After all, they have demonstrated a deeper knowledge of sql.
What should be covered?
Index structures.
Indexing.
Clustering.
Mirroring.
Log shipping.
Replication.
Performance tuning (how to read execution plans / statistics).
Server configuration.
Time to let other people in with their thoughts...
Wayne
Microsoft Certified Master: SQL Server 2008
Author - SQL Server T-SQL Recipes
April 5, 2010 at 2:53 pm
Wayne, how about a survey with chapters? I can pass this link around but not many people take time to read and respond thoughtfully but a survey will definitely get some quality response and perhaps can include comments as well.
Thanks
Malathi
April 5, 2010 at 3:20 pm
dma-669038 (4/5/2010)
...what i heard from my UG..some people who are managers said pretty emphatically that they would simply not hire an individual with only 1.5 years of expeirence to show as a senior DBA, regardless of how many certs that person had. They need a minimum of 3-5 years of solid experience for a senior Dba (am just using the word 'senior' to mean something more than entry level, not as a title). This is not an easy issue to table, rethinking perhaps there is no need for a TIS clause at all.
I agree with them on the hiring on somebody that has a minimum of 3-5 yrs experience. If a person must progress towards that minimum hiring standard anyway, this TIS may give them additional focus. It could be a middle ground accomplishment on their way to that Sr. level position.
In no way should a certification be (MCM excepted) be a replacement for real-life experience. However, if we have that requirement on the table, it could help drive home to the candidates the importance of experience. It is not an all-encompassing requirement though because there are those people out there that are that good without the experience. Those people may not have had the same opportunities.
Even with this new perspective, I would still want to keep TIS in the puzzle.
Jason...AKA CirqueDeSQLeil
_______________________________________________
I have given a name to my pain...MCM SQL Server, MVP
SQL RNNR
Posting Performance Based Questions - Gail Shaw[/url]
Learn Extended Events
April 5, 2010 at 3:44 pm
I have started a new thread on this topic.
http://www.sqlservercentral.com/Forums/Topic897076-10-1.aspx
Jason...AKA CirqueDeSQLeil
_______________________________________________
I have given a name to my pain...MCM SQL Server, MVP
SQL RNNR
Posting Performance Based Questions - Gail Shaw[/url]
Learn Extended Events
April 5, 2010 at 3:46 pm
WayneS (4/5/2010)
CirquedeSQLeil (4/5/2010)
How about we move on to a new topic?I think the next viable topic would be to hash out how the review board should be handled.
So, how will we propose this particular requirement?
Well, to start off, there are several distinct areas to cover:
1. Who qualifies to be sit on the board?
2. Where will the board convene?
3. How often will the board convene?
4. What topics will be covered by the board?
5. How large should the board be?
I suggest that we actually tackle these individually. However, it might be best to just throw things out that can cover all of these for a little bit, to get the conversation going.
It has been mentioned that it would be good to have boards at events / conventions (i.e. PASS, SQL Saturday, etc.). I agree with this, but we need to ensure that there are enough different people there to run multiple boards so that we don't end up with one group of people where all they do is do boards... they probably want to see what all is going on at the event also. (Unless they are being paid to be there for the purpose of conducting a board...)
It has also been mentioned that the board should be local. And in cases where it becomes a hardship to attend a board, that provisions to conduct the board via web-cam be available. I like both of these suggestions, but recognize that in order to have quality people sit on the board, we may need for some of them to actually be there virtually via web-cam also.
My initial thought as to who should sit on the board was to use MVPs. However, I immediately shot this down... because MVP does NOT mean that they are knowledgeable of the product to that depth, but instead this is a recognition of their evangalism of the product. This isn't to say that we should exclude MVPs; but that depth of knowledge is more important. I'm certain that MVPs will be on this board, but that should not be the criteria. I think that every attempt should be made to get at least two board members physically at the board, with the board consisting of 4-5 persons.
Does someone that has earned this certification automatically qualify to sit on a board? After all, they have demonstrated a deeper knowledge of sql.
What should be covered?
Index structures.
Indexing.
Clustering.
Mirroring.
Log shipping.
Replication.
Performance tuning (how to read execution plans / statistics).
Server configuration.
Time to let other people in with their thoughts...
I am reposting this in the new thread.
Jason...AKA CirqueDeSQLeil
_______________________________________________
I have given a name to my pain...MCM SQL Server, MVP
SQL RNNR
Posting Performance Based Questions - Gail Shaw[/url]
Learn Extended Events
April 5, 2010 at 4:34 pm
CirquedeSQLeil (4/5/2010)
I have started a new thread on this topic.http://www.sqlservercentral.com/Forums/Topic897076-10-1.aspx
Nah.... I'd rather see this discussion continue here instead of essentially double posting. Sorry Jason.
--Jeff Moden
Change is inevitable... Change for the better is not.
April 5, 2010 at 4:38 pm
Jeff Moden (4/5/2010)
CirquedeSQLeil (4/5/2010)
I have started a new thread on this topic.http://www.sqlservercentral.com/Forums/Topic897076-10-1.aspx
Nah.... I'd rather see this discussion continue here instead of essentially double posting. Sorry Jason.
I can continue to check here as well. I was heeding Steve's advice. It makes sense.
Of course, I can leave the other thread as a summary thread.
That may make more sense for anyone trying to follow.
Jason...AKA CirqueDeSQLeil
_______________________________________________
I have given a name to my pain...MCM SQL Server, MVP
SQL RNNR
Posting Performance Based Questions - Gail Shaw[/url]
Learn Extended Events
April 5, 2010 at 5:54 pm
dma-669038 (4/5/2010)
Wayne, how about a survey with chapters? I can pass this link around but not many people take time to read and respond thoughtfully but a survey will definitely get some quality response and perhaps can include comments as well.Thanks
Malathi
Interesting idea. Why don't you come up with one for us?
Wayne
Microsoft Certified Master: SQL Server 2008
Author - SQL Server T-SQL Recipes
April 5, 2010 at 5:59 pm
WayneS (4/5/2010)
dma-669038 (4/5/2010)
Wayne, how about a survey with chapters? I can pass this link around but not many people take time to read and respond thoughtfully but a survey will definitely get some quality response and perhaps can include comments as well.Thanks
Malathi
Interesting idea. Why don't you come up with one for us?
I think creating a survey is a useful idea. I think it would prove more helpful if the survey were to be conducted online.
Jason...AKA CirqueDeSQLeil
_______________________________________________
I have given a name to my pain...MCM SQL Server, MVP
SQL RNNR
Posting Performance Based Questions - Gail Shaw[/url]
Learn Extended Events
April 5, 2010 at 6:05 pm
WayneS (4/5/2010)
dma-669038 (4/5/2010)
Wayne, how about a survey with chapters? I can pass this link around but not many people take time to read and respond thoughtfully but a survey will definitely get some quality response and perhaps can include comments as well.Thanks
Malathi
Interesting idea. Why don't you come up with one for us?
I will, tonight and send it out here for the first pass. Thanks.
April 5, 2010 at 6:08 pm
dma-669038 (4/5/2010)
WayneS (4/5/2010)
dma-669038 (4/5/2010)
Wayne, how about a survey with chapters? I can pass this link around but not many people take time to read and respond thoughtfully but a survey will definitely get some quality response and perhaps can include comments as well.Thanks
Malathi
Interesting idea. Why don't you come up with one for us?
I will, tonight and send it out here for the first pass. Thanks.
Great, THANKS!
Jason mentioned maybe doing the survey online. I know that http://www.surveymonkey.com allows the building of free online surveys. I don't know if there are any other places that do, but I'd bet that there are.
Wayne
Microsoft Certified Master: SQL Server 2008
Author - SQL Server T-SQL Recipes
April 5, 2010 at 6:12 pm
WayneS (4/5/2010)
dma-669038 (4/5/2010)
WayneS (4/5/2010)
dma-669038 (4/5/2010)
Wayne, how about a survey with chapters? I can pass this link around but not many people take time to read and respond thoughtfully but a survey will definitely get some quality response and perhaps can include comments as well.Thanks
Malathi
Interesting idea. Why don't you come up with one for us?
I will, tonight and send it out here for the first pass. Thanks.
Great, THANKS!
Jason mentioned maybe doing the survey online. I know that http://www.surveymonkey.com allows the building of free online surveys. I don't know if there are any other places that do, but I'd bet that there are.
Yep, use that all the time 🙂
April 5, 2010 at 6:17 pm
dma-669038 (4/5/2010)
WayneS (4/5/2010)
dma-669038 (4/5/2010)
WayneS (4/5/2010)
dma-669038 (4/5/2010)
Wayne, how about a survey with chapters? I can pass this link around but not many people take time to read and respond thoughtfully but a survey will definitely get some quality response and perhaps can include comments as well.Thanks
Malathi
Interesting idea. Why don't you come up with one for us?
I will, tonight and send it out here for the first pass. Thanks.
Great, THANKS!
Jason mentioned maybe doing the survey online. I know that http://www.surveymonkey.com allows the building of free online surveys. I don't know if there are any other places that do, but I'd bet that there are.
Yep, use that all the time 🙂
Most excellent. I haven't used a free online survey engine. Maybe I should start doing something like that. How long can the survey be made available?
Jason...AKA CirqueDeSQLeil
_______________________________________________
I have given a name to my pain...MCM SQL Server, MVP
SQL RNNR
Posting Performance Based Questions - Gail Shaw[/url]
Learn Extended Events
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