The Missing Certification

Question

The Missing Certification

Minimal time-in-service requirement - I say 1 year
An adaptive on-line multiple-choice test - Not sure here, but maybe this is a short pre-req taken remotely before the other parts?
A set of tasks to perform on a sample database - Absolutely, though I'd lean towards a pool of xxx tasks, of which we give you yyy to complete.
A short piece of written work on a relevant subject area- Not sure about this myself
A panel interview- I like this

In terms of re-cert, does anyone know what's required in other areas? Should we just have a shortcut for new versions? Or maybe we waive the interview?

SQLRNNR SSC Guru Points: 281334 More actions · Answer 1

Jack Corbett (4/2/2010)
CirquedeSQLeil (4/2/2010)
Let's add that to the list. I forgot recertification.
What if the certified candidate remains actively engaged in the community, would they need to follow the same rigors of recertification?
I'm less interested in requiring a re-certification test, but more interested in developing continuing education guidelines that are required to maintain certification. I see this as more of a professional certification than a SQL Server version specific certification. If you are doing the things you should to be a professional then you likely will be up to date as far as versions go. I'd even go so far as to include the MCITP tests as part of the continuing education. Those help show that you are at least familiar with the new features.

Much the same as Teachers are required to do. Teachers must maintain a continuing education level (points are granted for certain courses, seminars, subjects taught - at least the current system in Utah is that way).

I can certainly see this as a valuable piece of the puzzle.

Jason...AKA CirqueDeSQLeil
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SQLRNNR SSC Guru Points: 281334 More actions · Answer 2

Paul White NZ (4/2/2010)
I think I would be keen on a certification that had these elements:
Minimal time-in-service requirement
An adaptive on-line multiple-choice test
A set of tasks to perform on a sample database
A short piece of written work on a relevant subject area
A panel interview
Adaptive tests tend to ask more questions (from a large pool) on subject areas you appear weaker in, as the test progresses. Questions might have more than one arguably correct answer, with more points awarded for correct answers which show a deeper understanding.
The written work idea is similar to a report/thesis/dissertation, part of many formal qualifications.
The panel interview should be with people who have already achieved the sought certification (or a higher level), be comprised of people unknown to the candidate, and offered online. Jeff Moden would be a good choice 😉
I would imagine a split something like 25% online test, 10% sample database tasks, 15% written work, 50% interview.
Paul

Thanks Paul for that input.

How do you think the Time In Service requirement should be defined?

Any opinions on Recertification or Continuing Education/Certification requirements?

Jason...AKA CirqueDeSQLeil
_______________________________________________
I have given a name to my pain...MCM SQL Server, MVP
SQL RNNR
Posting Performance Based Questions - Gail Shaw[/url]
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Grant Fritchey SSC Guru Points: 398909 More actions · Answer 3

Lynn Pettis (4/2/2010)
I also believe that the certification should be renewed periodically, minimum 3 years, maximum 5 years.
Recertification should include testing, presenting original material at users groups/conferences, attending appropriate conferences (PASS, SQL Connections are two that coe to mind), writing articles/books (much less weight on blogs).

And here we differ. I'd say the cert can be tied to a product version. Say you get certified for SQL Server 2000. You'd still be fully employed here where I work and your cert would be good. Another place may only have need of people who know 2008 R2, so that 2000 cert would be worthless. But I don't think you should have to reaquire the cert just because time has passed.

"The credit belongs to the man who is actually in the arena, whose face is marred by dust and sweat and blood"
- Theodore Roosevelt

Author of:
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SQLRNNR SSC Guru Points: 281334 More actions · Answer 4

Grant Fritchey (4/2/2010)
Lynn Pettis (4/2/2010)
I also believe that the certification should be renewed periodically, minimum 3 years, maximum 5 years.
Recertification should include testing, presenting original material at users groups/conferences, attending appropriate conferences (PASS, SQL Connections are two that coe to mind), writing articles/books (much less weight on blogs).
And here we differ. I'd say the cert can be tied to a product version. Say you get certified for SQL Server 2000. You'd still be fully employed here where I work and your cert would be good. Another place may only have need of people who know 2008 R2, so that 2000 cert would be worthless. But I don't think you should have to reaquire the cert just because time has passed.

What about a continuing education requirement in this scenario?

What if MS decides to not issue a certification track for a specific SQL Server Release (such as 2008 R2)?

I can see where requiring a recertification would not be useful in SQL 2000, however if they were required to update their skill set to show progress, that seems fair.

Jason...AKA CirqueDeSQLeil
_______________________________________________
I have given a name to my pain...MCM SQL Server, MVP
SQL RNNR
Posting Performance Based Questions - Gail Shaw[/url]
Learn Extended Events

Steve Jones - SSC Editor SSC Guru Points: 736504 More actions · Answer 5

Steve Jones - SSC Editor

SSC Guru

Points: 736504

April 2, 2010 at 12:04 pm

#1145012

Paul White SSC Guru Points: 150468 More actions · Answer 6

CirquedeSQLeil (4/2/2010)
Thanks Paul for that input.
How do you think the Time In Service requirement should be defined?

Not sure really - I've kept out of the discussion because it's not really an area where I feel I have much to contribute.

I find the whole TiS thing very difficult - it adds a fair amount of administrative overhead without really proving much. I guess maybe a year or so in some broadly relevant role waived for people with a degree or higher qualification?

It doesn't feel that useful a requirement to me...I wrote 'minimal' rather than 'none' to reflect my uncertainty.

As far as recertification is concerned: A qualification quickly ages in the eyes of others anyway, so it is in the interests of the holder to renew at some stage. I don't think it should expire exactly - a bit like an educational qualification. A renewal might only need the online test and interview rather than the full works.

I don't pretend to have thought this all through, just thought I ought to contribute something.

Paul White
All articles available on SQL.kiwi
@SQL_Kiwi

SQLRNNR SSC Guru Points: 281334 More actions · Answer 7

Paul White NZ (4/2/2010)
I find the whole TiS thing very difficult - it adds a fair amount of administrative overhead without really proving much. I guess maybe a year or so in some broadly relevant role waived for people with a degree or higher qualification?

Yes it is a difficult topic. It seems the most controversial as well.

As far as recertification is concerned: A qualification quickly ages in the eyes of others anyway, so it is in the interests of the holder to renew at some stage. I don't think it should expire exactly - a bit like an educational qualification. A renewal might only need the online test and interview rather than the full works.

If one must recertify for a new product, it is kinda like renewing that certification.

Jason...AKA CirqueDeSQLeil
_______________________________________________
I have given a name to my pain...MCM SQL Server, MVP
SQL RNNR
Posting Performance Based Questions - Gail Shaw[/url]
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Grant Fritchey SSC Guru Points: 398909 More actions · Answer 8

CirquedeSQLeil (4/2/2010)
Grant Fritchey (4/2/2010)
Lynn Pettis (4/2/2010)
I also believe that the certification should be renewed periodically, minimum 3 years, maximum 5 years.
Recertification should include testing, presenting original material at users groups/conferences, attending appropriate conferences (PASS, SQL Connections are two that coe to mind), writing articles/books (much less weight on blogs).
And here we differ. I'd say the cert can be tied to a product version. Say you get certified for SQL Server 2000. You'd still be fully employed here where I work and your cert would be good. Another place may only have need of people who know 2008 R2, so that 2000 cert would be worthless. But I don't think you should have to reaquire the cert just because time has passed.
What about a continuing education requirement in this scenario?
What if MS decides to not issue a certification track for a specific SQL Server Release (such as 2008 R2)?
I can see where requiring a recertification would not be useful in SQL 2000, however if they were required to update their skill set to show progress, that seems fair.

I'm not sure. MS invalidates old versions of certs when they want to. I think the 2005 certs get invalidated with the 2008 R2 cert is available. So, assuming we're working directly with Micrososft, it'll probably work something like that. But I don't think it needs to.

"The credit belongs to the man who is actually in the arena, whose face is marred by dust and sweat and blood"
- Theodore Roosevelt

Author of:
SQL Server Execution Plans
SQL Server Query Performance Tuning

Steve Jones - SSC Editor SSC Guru Points: 736504 More actions · Answer 9

I'm not sure certs are invalidated. The tests are EOL'd, just like any product, so at some point you can't take them. I'm not sure it's as cut and dried as the new version test is out, but they are retired. The 2000 tests are being whacked this year

http://www.microsoft.com/learning/en/us/certification/exam-dev.aspx#tab4

Lynn Pettis SSC Guru Points: 442467 More actions · Answer 10

For an idea of where I am thinking, check out TDWI's certification, and more specifically their recertification. In many ways it is much like what Jack suggested, continuing education.

TDWI's cert actually has two levels based on how well you do on their tests.

WayneS SSC Guru Points: 95460 More actions · Answer 11

Man has this topic been hot today! I find that fantastic! (I almost wish I hadn't gotten off work early.)

I feel that the Time-In-Service (T-I-S) has been fleshed out pretty well (from what I see, the only real discussion is on the amount of time), and I'd like to propose this as the T-I-S requirement:

The candidate attests to a minimum of 18 months hands-on experience in SQL Server. Willfully misrepresenting (lying) about this is subject to a permanent revocation of this certification.
This does NOT mean an equivalent of 18 months of 8 hr days with hands-on experience; this means 18 months of any hands-on experience. This can be as a developer, DBA, or in BI (SSAS/SSIS/SSRS).

The 18 months is based on a compromise between the 1yr and 2yr being mentioned as the most frequent requirement. This also greatly minimizes any administrative burden from any certifying agency in the verification of this.

I wish that there was a way, from within an existing thread, to do a poll. Barring one, can we have a simple Yes/No vote by replying to this message?

Wayne
Microsoft Certified Master: SQL Server 2008
Author - SQL Server T-SQL Recipes

If you can't explain to another person how the code that you're copying from the internet works, then DON'T USE IT on a production system! After all, you will be the one supporting it!

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SQLRNNR SSC Guru Points: 281334 More actions · Answer 12

18 months is barely a blip. I think this is fair.

Yes

Jason...AKA CirqueDeSQLeil
_______________________________________________
I have given a name to my pain...MCM SQL Server, MVP
SQL RNNR
Posting Performance Based Questions - Gail Shaw[/url]
Learn Extended Events

WayneS SSC Guru Points: 95460 More actions · Answer 13

Grant Fritchey (4/2/2010)
I'd say the cert can be tied to a product version. Say you get certified for SQL Server 2000. You'd still be fully employed here where I work and your cert would be good. Another place may only have need of people who know 2008 R2, so that 2000 cert would be worthless. But I don't think you should have to reaquire the cert just because time has passed.

In view of the way that MS currently does it (

Credential - Certification/Version

MCDBA - SQL Server 2000

MCTS - SQL Server 2005

MCITP - Database Administrator)

where the MCITP is geared towards a specific version, I agree that this certification should be Version specific.

Wayne
Microsoft Certified Master: SQL Server 2008
Author - SQL Server T-SQL Recipes

If you can't explain to another person how the code that you're copying from the internet works, then DON'T USE IT on a production system! After all, you will be the one supporting it!

Links:
For better assistance in answering your questions
Performance Problems
Common date/time routines
Understanding and Using APPLY Part 1 & Part 2

Steve Jones - SSC Editor SSC Guru Points: 736504 More actions · Answer 14

Wayne,

I like your wording for TIS. That seems to make sense to me.

Steve Jones - SSC Editor SSC Guru Points: 736504 More actions · Answer 15

WayneS (4/2/2010)
where the MCITP is geared towards a specific version, I agree that this certification should be Version specific.

Definitely version specific, though I'd also add I think it needs to be area/subsystem specific as well. No one is a complete journeyman in all aspects of SQL Server.