April 2, 2010 at 11:10 am
I also believe that the certification should be renewed periodically, minimum 3 years, maximum 5 years.
Recertification should include testing, presenting original material at users groups/conferences, attending appropriate conferences (PASS, SQL Connections are two that coe to mind), writing articles/books (much less weight on blogs).
April 2, 2010 at 11:10 am
Lynn Pettis (4/2/2010)
Okay, 30% developer/70% DBA. Would that take the 2 yrs back to 2 yrs?Could make that 30% Developer/20% Data modeler/50% DBA, how would that work out?
This is where I'd say if you worked with SQL Server for 2 years or 12 years, it doesn't really matter other than you have been working with it. The real test comes with the testing, do you demonstrate the necessary knowledge and application of that knowledge to accomplish specific tasks.
You're slotting jobs v working with the product. Regardless of whether you had worked as a developer or DBA, if your job was only 30% SQL Server, then I'd say you have less experience than someone working exclusively with it.
You do make a good argument that it can get confusing, so perhaps the percentages aren't appropriate. Maybe we just try to count months you worked with SQL Server in any capacity?
April 2, 2010 at 11:11 am
Lynn Pettis (4/2/2010)
Steve Jones - Editor (4/2/2010)
CirquedeSQLeil (4/2/2010)
Lynn Pettis (4/2/2010)
If you spend 50% of your time coding, what were you doing with the other 50%? There is more than coding, so I have to say 1 year is 1 year.Yes - 1yr is 1yr.
I'd lean away from years. I'd actually go to months, especially as I expect many projects, or even engagements to last < 1 year.
I'd go towards gross months with SQL Server. Trying to limit it to subsystems would fail, IMHO. So 30% time as a developer over 2 years would be 6 months experience with SQL Server.
Okay, 30% developer/70% DBA. Would that take the 2 yrs back to 2 yrs?
Could make that 30% Developer/20% Data modeler/50% DBA, how would that work out?
This is where I'd say if you worked with SQL Server for 2 years or 12 years, it doesn't really matter other than you have been working with it. The real test comes with the testing, do you demonstrate the necessary knowledge and application of that knowledge to accomplish specific tasks.
I'd rather ask about 30% SQL Server Database Engine/DBA, 20% SSIS, 10% writing stored procedure code, something like that...something that ties the product features to what the person did. Definitions of Data modeler, DBA etc vary greatly and this induced lot of subjectivity.
April 2, 2010 at 11:12 am
WayneS (4/2/2010)
Kit G (4/2/2010)
Just a note on requiring Time in Service. What are you going to do if the company that the person was working for goes out of business and the upper executive structure goes to jail for the crimes that caused the business to fail?You know, this scenario was exactly what I was thinking of when I read Steve's suggestion, and why I like it. The person says what experience he has, but the certifying board doesn't have to verify it. And, if it turns out that the person was lying, they can be de-certified. Yes, it would be easily gamed. Yes, it doesn't require verification. But the emphasis of this certification is the knowledge, not the TIS. The certification requires the experience, but the remainder of the process can weed out those that don't have the level of knowledge required.
Agreed. With enough other checks in the process, I think we can weed out much of the gaming. Not all of it - but most of it.
Jason...AKA CirqueDeSQLeil
_______________________________________________
I have given a name to my pain...MCM SQL Server, MVP
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April 2, 2010 at 11:17 am
Steve Jones - Editor (4/2/2010)
I do think we need to have automated test. I'd be in favor of a VM that is set to some base and we ask for you to accomplish xxx tasks. We then have an automated way to check that you did it. Maybe not how you did it, or how many mistakes, or even how long, but that you accomplished it in the time allowed.
Interesting take on not worrying about the number of mistakes. I don't think we need to be concerned about which method got the person to the correct result (unlike current exams where precise clicks do matter). So long as the person completes the tasks within the time limit - then that is good.
Some degree of scoring would have to be done though - unless there are numerous random tasks and each task completion counted pass/fail for x number of points.
Jason...AKA CirqueDeSQLeil
_______________________________________________
I have given a name to my pain...MCM SQL Server, MVP
SQL RNNR
Posting Performance Based Questions - Gail Shaw[/url]
Learn Extended Events
April 2, 2010 at 11:21 am
Jack Corbett (4/2/2010)
I believe that this lends greater weight to the certification. It won't stop unethical people from being certified but should help limit them.
With a number of limiting factors, but still not closing the doors to anyone, we will have a much more acceptable certification worth more to the individual, community, and employers.
A side note is that I have notified a member of the PASS board about this thread, they are excited about it, and may be weighing in on it.
Very interesting. I think that puts you at the top for heading up the subcommittee with PASS on the topic ;-).
Jason...AKA CirqueDeSQLeil
_______________________________________________
I have given a name to my pain...MCM SQL Server, MVP
SQL RNNR
Posting Performance Based Questions - Gail Shaw[/url]
Learn Extended Events
April 2, 2010 at 11:23 am
Lynn Pettis (4/2/2010)
Steve Jones - Editor (4/2/2010)
CirquedeSQLeil (4/2/2010)
Lynn Pettis (4/2/2010)
If you spend 50% of your time coding, what were you doing with the other 50%? There is more than coding, so I have to say 1 year is 1 year.Yes - 1yr is 1yr.
I'd lean away from years. I'd actually go to months, especially as I expect many projects, or even engagements to last < 1 year.
I'd go towards gross months with SQL Server. Trying to limit it to subsystems would fail, IMHO. So 30% time as a developer over 2 years would be 6 months experience with SQL Server.
Okay, 30% developer/70% DBA. Would that take the 2 yrs back to 2 yrs?
Could make that 30% Developer/20% Data modeler/50% DBA, how would that work out?
This is where I'd say if you worked with SQL Server for 2 years or 12 years, it doesn't really matter other than you have been working with it. The real test comes with the testing, do you demonstrate the necessary knowledge and application of that knowledge to accomplish specific tasks.
I think Steve has a good point. What if my primary role has been as a .Net developer but I know some TSQL. In this scenario, it should be reduced to months over years. They spend so much more time doing .Net than TSQL that it could be a misnomer to say that they truly have two years experience.
Jason...AKA CirqueDeSQLeil
_______________________________________________
I have given a name to my pain...MCM SQL Server, MVP
SQL RNNR
Posting Performance Based Questions - Gail Shaw[/url]
Learn Extended Events
April 2, 2010 at 11:25 am
Lynn Pettis (4/2/2010)
As I thought about the labs, even if Microsoft actually hosts the MCJ testing systems, these would probably be best accessed from certified testing centers to help reduce the possibilities of others taking the tests for friends.Of course, if this were found to happen, and both were certified, both would lose the cert.
Absolutely on both counts. The testing must be performed from a certified testing center.
Jason...AKA CirqueDeSQLeil
_______________________________________________
I have given a name to my pain...MCM SQL Server, MVP
SQL RNNR
Posting Performance Based Questions - Gail Shaw[/url]
Learn Extended Events
April 2, 2010 at 11:27 am
Lynn Pettis (4/2/2010)
I also believe that the certification should be renewed periodically, minimum 3 years, maximum 5 years.Recertification should include testing, presenting original material at users groups/conferences, attending appropriate conferences (PASS, SQL Connections are two that coe to mind), writing articles/books (much less weight on blogs).
Let's add that to the list. I forgot recertification.
What if the certified candidate remains actively engaged in the community, would they need to follow the same rigors of recertification?
Jason...AKA CirqueDeSQLeil
_______________________________________________
I have given a name to my pain...MCM SQL Server, MVP
SQL RNNR
Posting Performance Based Questions - Gail Shaw[/url]
Learn Extended Events
April 2, 2010 at 11:32 am
CirquedeSQLeil (4/2/2010)
A side note is that I have notified a member of the PASS board about this thread, they are excited about it, and may be weighing in on it.
Very interesting. I think that puts you at the top for heading up the subcommittee with PASS on the topic ;-).
Perhaps, but based on the interaction on this thread, you seem to be naturally migrating to a leadership role, thus you may be even more qualified to head it up. 😉
Jack Corbett
Consultant - Straight Path Solutions
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April 2, 2010 at 11:35 am
Jack Corbett (4/2/2010)
CirquedeSQLeil (4/2/2010)
A side note is that I have notified a member of the PASS board about this thread, they are excited about it, and may be weighing in on it.
Very interesting. I think that puts you at the top for heading up the subcommittee with PASS on the topic ;-).
Perhaps, but based on the interaction on this thread, you seem to be naturally migrating to a leadership role, thus you may be even more qualified to head it up. 😉
Replace leadership with instigator :-D:-P;-):cool:
Jason...AKA CirqueDeSQLeil
_______________________________________________
I have given a name to my pain...MCM SQL Server, MVP
SQL RNNR
Posting Performance Based Questions - Gail Shaw[/url]
Learn Extended Events
April 2, 2010 at 11:36 am
Regarding Time in Service, I stay away from trying get into too much detail regarding how much time was spent writing stored procedures or triggers or view, and such. Much of that could be determined from the testing. This should be a general value that indicates that you have some hands on experience and can apply knowledge learned in a real world environment.
April 2, 2010 at 11:37 am
CirquedeSQLeil (4/2/2010)
Lynn Pettis (4/2/2010)
I also believe that the certification should be renewed periodically, minimum 3 years, maximum 5 years.Recertification should include testing, presenting original material at users groups/conferences, attending appropriate conferences (PASS, SQL Connections are two that coe to mind), writing articles/books (much less weight on blogs).
Let's add that to the list. I forgot recertification.
What if the certified candidate remains actively engaged in the community, would they need to follow the same rigors of recertification?
I'm less interested in requiring a re-certification test, but more interested in developing continuing education guidelines that are required to maintain certification. I see this as more of a professional certification than a SQL Server version specific certification. If you are doing the things you should to be a professional then you likely will be up to date as far as versions go. I'd even go so far as to include the MCITP tests as part of the continuing education. Those help show that you are at least familiar with the new features.
Last post on this thread for at least a few hours. Want to get a technical not opinion blog post up and take the kids to the pool, it's a beautiful 85 F here in central FL. May combine the 2.
Jack Corbett
Consultant - Straight Path Solutions
Check out these links on how to get faster and more accurate answers:
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April 2, 2010 at 11:49 am
Lynn Pettis (4/2/2010)
Regarding Time in Service, I stay away from trying get into too much detail regarding how much time was spent writing stored procedures or triggers or view, and such. Much of that could be determined from the testing. This should be a general value that indicates that you have some hands on experience and can apply knowledge learned in a real world environment.
This brings us around on this topic as to why it is so difficult.
If we are truly keeping the TIS as a lower value requirement, then knowing the specifics about somebody's involvement with the product may be overkill.
Jason...AKA CirqueDeSQLeil
_______________________________________________
I have given a name to my pain...MCM SQL Server, MVP
SQL RNNR
Posting Performance Based Questions - Gail Shaw[/url]
Learn Extended Events
April 2, 2010 at 11:51 am
I think I would be keen on a certification that had these elements:
Adaptive tests tend to ask more questions (from a large pool) on subject areas you appear weaker in, as the test progresses. Questions might have more than one arguably correct answer, with more points awarded for correct answers which show a deeper understanding.
The written work idea is similar to a report/thesis/dissertation, part of many formal qualifications.
The panel interview should be with people who have already achieved the sought certification (or a higher level), be comprised of people unknown to the candidate, and offered online. Jeff Moden would be a good choice 😉
I would imagine a split something like 25% online test, 10% sample database tasks, 15% written work, 50% interview.
Paul
Paul White
SQLPerformance.com
SQLkiwi blog
@SQL_Kiwi
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