March 23, 2010 at 10:23 am
I've never been big on MS Certs. MCM is a different beast all together though. Any of you guys work with a Cisco CCIE who didn't know what the hell he was doing? I haven't. When a consultant or co-worker tells me he is a full CCIE I don't worry about his ability to work with Cisco equipment. I've worked with and interviewed dozens of MCITP's and MCSD's that were just plain clueless. How can you be an MCSD and not know the fundamentals of C# or T-SQL? I will say it isn't quite as bad as the good ol' MCSE+I dot com days. I had a potential employer ask me why I didn't have my MCSE once. I told him because I work with dozens of them every day and saw the quality of their work.
March 23, 2010 at 10:49 am
I blame MS for ruining the value of MCITP & MCSE certs, I guess it's all about money with them.
They on purpose made exams without some prerequisites like MCM and CISSP have
(I really shouldn't compare those high end certs with "MCITP")
Only good thing that came from those certs is that I learned thing or two more about MS product and my ex boss got for his company a privilege of being MS gold or platinum Partner.
-------------------------------------------------------------
"It takes 15 minutes to learn the game and a lifetime to master"
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March 23, 2010 at 10:55 am
I got tired of the Certification merry-go-round back in the early 2000's (which can become insane and a significant $ drain) and decided in stead to spend my $ on something more mutable <lol>... morph my BS degree into a BIT, then an MIT, and now a DCS. I do think certs have value, and most specifically non-vendor Certs, especially those which are more 'professional' in nature such as...
* http://www.feacinstitute.org/ea-certification/registration.php
* http://www.opengroup.org/itac/cert/
...to name a few. But I think one's time/money/energy needs to be spent wisely on these to avoid the vendor-cert round-a-bout. Some vendor certs can provide broad technology expertise (Cisco, etc), or if one wants to only work in one arena (MS, Oracle, etc), though I've danced on many sides in 25+yrs.
IME, the ladder of marketability from most desirable to least runs something like...
Experience, DS Degree, w/Industry Certs
Experience, MS Degree, w/Industry Certs
Experience, BS Degree, w/Industry Certs
Experience, w/Industry Certs
Experience, w/Vendor Certs
DS Degree
MS Degree
BS Degree
Industry Certs
Vendor Certs
Hard to get away from the 'experience' 🙂
Jm2c...
Dr. Les Cardwell, DCS-DSS
Enterprise Data Architect
Central Lincoln PUD
March 23, 2010 at 11:06 am
Jack Corbett (3/23/2010)
In my opinion, this is one of the areas where PASS should be leading. Either PASS should develop a better certification or it should be working with MS to produce a better certification process.
I like this idea. What if there were a PASS certification for SQL Server? Would there be any merit to it? Would that help PASS become more recognizable by employers in the industry?
Jason...AKA CirqueDeSQLeil
_______________________________________________
I have given a name to my pain...MCM SQL Server, MVP
SQL RNNR
Posting Performance Based Questions - Gail Shaw[/url]
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March 23, 2010 at 11:14 am
Robert.Smith-1001156 (3/23/2010)
I think developers ought to take certification out of the hands of Microsoft ... and put it into the hands of a body that represents developers' interests (as the College of Physicians and Surgeons does for doctors or the Bar Association does for lawyers).
Interesting Idea. Would that governing body handle both Microsoft and Oracle certification then? Would it be an all encompassing governing body that handles all certifications (SUN, CISCO, Oracle, Novell, Microsoft, etc etc etc.)?
Jason...AKA CirqueDeSQLeil
_______________________________________________
I have given a name to my pain...MCM SQL Server, MVP
SQL RNNR
Posting Performance Based Questions - Gail Shaw[/url]
Learn Extended Events
March 23, 2010 at 11:15 am
Lynn Pettis (3/23/2010)
Robert.Smith-1001156 (3/23/2010)
I know there are a lot of former Dungeons and Dragons players in our business, but please can we not call it a "guild"? 😉 I like the apprenticeship idea though!Robb
Actually there are still a good number of current Dungeons and Dragons players out here. Why not call it a "Guild"? Other professions have Guilds, why not ours?
I.e. Screen actors Guild
Jason...AKA CirqueDeSQLeil
_______________________________________________
I have given a name to my pain...MCM SQL Server, MVP
SQL RNNR
Posting Performance Based Questions - Gail Shaw[/url]
Learn Extended Events
March 23, 2010 at 11:16 am
Michael Valentine Jones (3/23/2010)
Lynn Pettis (3/23/2010)
Actually there are still a good number of current Dungeons and Dragons players out here. Why not call it a "Guild"? Other professions have Guilds, why not ours?
So people don't have additional reasons to assume we're dorks? :ermm:
How about something professional sounding, like Association of Database Professionals?
Nah. That acronym is already taken. We would need something far more clever.
Jason...AKA CirqueDeSQLeil
_______________________________________________
I have given a name to my pain...MCM SQL Server, MVP
SQL RNNR
Posting Performance Based Questions - Gail Shaw[/url]
Learn Extended Events
March 23, 2010 at 11:17 am
Jack Corbett (3/23/2010)
Michael Valentine Jones (3/23/2010)
Lynn Pettis (3/23/2010)
Actually there are still a good number of current Dungeons and Dragons players out here. Why not call it a "Guild"? Other professions have Guilds, why not ours?
So people don't have additional reasons to assume we're dorks? :ermm:
How about something professional sounding, like Association of Database Professionals?
Well, we do have PASS (Professional Association of SQL Server). Personally I think the certification debate ought to be a priority for the organization. Setting some kind of continuing education should be important as well. I'll have to put it in my platform when I run for the board.:-D
Jack for Prez.
I really think this is a worthwhile cause to be undertaken by PASS.
Jason...AKA CirqueDeSQLeil
_______________________________________________
I have given a name to my pain...MCM SQL Server, MVP
SQL RNNR
Posting Performance Based Questions - Gail Shaw[/url]
Learn Extended Events
March 23, 2010 at 11:24 am
CirquedeSQLeil (3/23/2010)
Jack Corbett (3/23/2010)
In my opinion, this is one of the areas where PASS should be leading. Either PASS should develop a better certification or it should be working with MS to produce a better certification process.I like this idea. What if there were a PASS certification for SQL Server? Would there be any merit to it? Would that help PASS become more recognizable by employers in the industry?
It's a thorny issue for PASS because, if you read the history, PASS was founded by MS and CA, has a guaranteed spot on the board and is a major financial partner. Just look at the recent to-do about the location of the Summit, in some people's opinion (yes, mine) the PASS board gives more consideration to MS in some decisions than is does its members. Because of this PASS would have a hard time offering a certification, because, as mentioned, MS makes money on its certifications.
I think there is room for PASS to do something beyond MCITP, but short of MCM. Even if it just defines some type of continuing education requirements and provides a way to track it. Then it becomes a matter of offering a "carrot" to get someone to do the requirements.
Jack Corbett
Consultant - Straight Path Solutions
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March 23, 2010 at 11:26 am
I blame MS for ruining the value of MCITP & MCSE certs, I guess it's all about money with them.
They on purpose made exams without some prerequisites like MCM and CISSP have
(I really shouldn't compare those high end certs with "MCITP")
There is nothing high end about CISSP because a CISSP that knows security implementation choose to know it because the certification does not provide it. I choose not to study for it because it was an admin credential in the early 2000 then it evolved to security all when they only know security process which is not related to implementation. There are no layers in Microsoft security implementation, only context and implementation details which most people don't know where to start.
MCM is not for me because we the developers and Microsoft did not agree on software architect certification. The problem with that is Microsoft will implement what they are not agreeing with in the next service pack.
Kind regards,
Gift Peddie
March 23, 2010 at 11:32 am
CirquedeSQLeil (3/23/2010)
Jack Corbett (3/23/2010)
Michael Valentine Jones (3/23/2010)
Lynn Pettis (3/23/2010)
Actually there are still a good number of current Dungeons and Dragons players out here. Why not call it a "Guild"? Other professions have Guilds, why not ours?
So people don't have additional reasons to assume we're dorks? :ermm:
How about something professional sounding, like Association of Database Professionals?
Well, we do have PASS (Professional Association of SQL Server). Personally I think the certification debate ought to be a priority for the organization. Setting some kind of continuing education should be important as well. I'll have to put it in my platform when I run for the board.:-D
Jack for Prez.
I really think this is a worthwhile cause to be undertaken by PASS.
Under the current by-laws it would be a minimum of 6 years before I could be president. First you have to be elected to the board (2 yrs), get re-elected and become VP of marketing (2yrs), get re-elected and become VP of Finance (2 yrs), and then get re-elected and become President (2yrs). Then by becoming president you are committed to another 2 yrs of service as Immediate Past President which is a voting position on the board. So to become president of PASS you need to be willing to commit to 10 yrs on the board which could be 12 since you can be president 2 times if the VP of finance doesn't want to be president.
Edit: Had put my response within the quote. Moved it out.
Jack Corbett
Consultant - Straight Path Solutions
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March 23, 2010 at 11:38 am
Jack Corbett (3/23/2010)
Michael Valentine Jones (3/23/2010)
Lynn Pettis (3/23/2010)
Actually there are still a good number of current Dungeons and Dragons players out here. Why not call it a "Guild"? Other professions have Guilds, why not ours?
So people don't have additional reasons to assume we're dorks? :ermm:
How about something professional sounding, like Association of Database Professionals?
Well, we do have PASS (Professional Association of SQL Server). Personally I think the certification debate ought to be a priority for the organization. Setting some kind of continuing education should be important as well. I'll have to put it in my platform when I run for the board.:-D
I absolutely agree that the cert process needs to come out of Microsoft's hands. However, whatever third party organization you ultimately give the testing/certification process to, this still does not address the posting of a braindump to the Internet once someone does go through the process for others to see and use with that third-party's certification process. Until you address this issue, any third-party certification process can and will be compromised. As long as they can be compromised on the Internet, then their REAL world value is degraded in my opinion. TravisDBA.
"Technology is a weird thing. It brings you great gifts with one hand, and it stabs you in the back with the other. ...:-D"
March 23, 2010 at 12:03 pm
What a topical editorial!
Just two weeks ago we were dealing with a client where two of their staff, one a DBA, and one a "SQL Expert" proved to me just how worthless and deceptive certifications are. One guy had three certifications, and the other guy five that they proudly display in their emails just after their names. (To me, this is, and always has been a sign that I am working with someone who does a great job on exams, but likely doesn't have much "in the trenches" experience.)
Well, long story short - these two fellows managed to lock themselves completely out of a database and last we heard, they still have not managed to get back in. They messed around with permissions for days and seem to have made things only worse for themselves - but of course, they wont accept any help because they have certifications to stand by.
Taking an exam to be certified is about as much a marker for proficiency as blowing out a match makes you a "firefighter". This has always been a scam going back to the earliest days of computing. Get a certification by merely forking over thousands (sometimes). THAT is "certified"? Hardly...
That is not related to Microsoft certification but rather AD experts thinking AD will control everything in SQL Server without any understanding of security context and implementation details. That is like users who are using Kerberos that gets null user errors, there are so many variables for Kerberos to work as expected but nobody tells these people when it is an application context SQL Server and the application will control access to the database so don't use Kerberos in all situations.
Fort Knox is created and the person who created Fort Knox is outside Fort Knox with the only key which is not valid.
I usually tell users no who asks no what do you mean no? No because Microsoft does not know the Windows security admin skills level of all companies and if systems does not know how the ACL moves in the network it is the SQL Server persons responsibility to know SQL Server connection context.
Kind regards,
Gift Peddie
March 23, 2010 at 12:31 pm
I have found certifications to give a decent overview of the product features. Personally I didnt' find them a cakewalk altogether, more bcoz i dont use all the features like mirroring or xml or service broker , for example. I had to study quite a bit to get thru those. Most organisations don't go entirely by certs, certs just add value and normally to clear an interview for a senior dba you need to know a lot more than that, plus have decent references. Even if you fooled your way thru' all of that you wouldn't last at the job for long based on cert based knowledge alone. As for using strategies like brain dumps, fyi it is possible to fool your way thru' *any* system and sooner or later the lack of depth shows up. Lastly on the MCM..to me a lot of it seems to be knowledge for the sake of knowledge alone. I could understand that if it was history or literature but technical knowledge gets dated soon and am not sure how the investment will pay off. Perhaps would think it is worth doing if i knew more.
March 23, 2010 at 12:46 pm
Revenant (3/23/2010)
If you want a good example of what certifications ought to be, look at P.Eng's. IMO they represent a good balance of education, experience, and recommendation of someone who supervised candidate's work.
As a former P.Eng. I agree that this is a good system.
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