March 30, 2010 at 12:00 pm
Kit G (3/30/2010)
I just realized I'm not understanding the context of a word being used here. That word is "gamer".From the search I did on the Internet and various web dictionaries, the only definitions I could find pertained to someone who played role-playing games (Dungeons and Dragons, etc.) or someone who played computer games, either computer, console or online.
What I'm getting from the context is someone who cheats on the exams for certifications. And if someone can direct me to a different definition, I would appreciate that.
It comes from the phrase "gaming the system". If you Bing, "definition: game the system", it will give you what you're looking for.
- Gus "GSquared", RSVP, OODA, MAP, NMVP, FAQ, SAT, SQL, DNA, RNA, UOI, IOU, AM, PM, AD, BC, BCE, USA, UN, CF, ROFL, LOL, ETC
Property of The Thread
"Nobody knows the age of the human race, but everyone agrees it's old enough to know better." - Anon
March 30, 2010 at 12:09 pm
GSquared (3/30/2010)
Jeff Moden (3/30/2010)
GSquared (3/30/2010)
There is no way short of hiring someone and putting them to work, to fully verify that someone knows the skills they are claiming. None that's realistic, anyway.You've seen plenty of people who could claim all kinds of expertise, but who couldn't answer simple basics in an interview. I'm sure you've experienced the people who make it through the whole hiring process, go to work, and promptly prove that they are competent only at getting themselves hired. I know I sure have!
Even the idea of "renting someone to do the tech interview" is really just another type of peer review. And subject to gaming and falsification. How can a manager tell if the person he's asking to do the tech interview even knows how to do that?
If you ever sat through one of my interviews, you would change your mind about that. I only need an hour or so and no "gamer" can make it through it.
If it isn't a system that can be implemented in a perfectly codifiable manner by any manager who needs it, it doesn't resolve the problem being addressed. I also have to admit that I have doubts about the perfection of your system. I can easily believe it hasn't failed for you yet, but I have never seen any human endeavor produce a perfect system. Doesn't mean they don't exist, but I do have my doubts about it.
The most obvious flaw in it is that you can't possibly carry out the kind of intensity on an interview on all subjects about SQL that might ever be required. Your knowledge of T-SQL is quite possibly unsurpassed, but if I remember correctly, you are far from expert on SSIS, SSRS, and a few other areas of MS SQL Server. If you aren't yourself an expert on SSIS, would your interview process actually suss out the difference between competence at SSIS and expertise at SSIS? (If I'm mistaken about your competence in SSIS, fill in that blank with some other area of SQL Server at which you aren't one of the top people in the world.)
Yes that was what i wanted to ask also. And probably Jeff knows all the subject areas he is meant to handle/interview on thoroughly well that is very possible. The point is just vast majority of managers don't and don't need to. They ask in detail on some areas and trivia on others and make a judgement call *largely* based on what you answer + some intuition. Plus almost all workplaces have a period where you need to prove yourself before you get hands on on production. Majority 'gamers' don't make it through that anyways.
March 30, 2010 at 12:16 pm
GSquared (3/30/2010)
It comes from the phrase "gaming the system". If you Bing, "definition: game the system", it will give you what you're looking for.
Thanks, that cleared it up for me.
Wish a different word had been chosen for that since I'm involved with both role-playing/computer games (and hence a "gamer") and SQL, but would never be a "gamer" to get a certificate. If you cheat to get something, it ain't worth diddly-squat.
-- Kit
March 30, 2010 at 12:21 pm
Kit G (3/30/2010)
GSquared (3/30/2010)
It comes from the phrase "gaming the system". If you Bing, "definition: game the system", it will give you what you're looking for.Thanks, that cleared it up for me.
Wish a different word had been chosen for that since I'm involved with both role-playing/computer games (and hence a "gamer") and SQL, but would never be a "gamer" to get a certificate. If you cheat to get something, it ain't worth diddly-squat.
And that is one reason why the certs mean so little to so many people - too many cheaters.
Jason...AKA CirqueDeSQLeil
_______________________________________________
I have given a name to my pain...MCM SQL Server, MVP
SQL RNNR
Posting Performance Based Questions - Gail Shaw[/url]
Learn Extended Events
March 30, 2010 at 12:23 pm
dma-669038 (3/30/2010)
GSquared (3/30/2010)
Jeff Moden (3/30/2010)
GSquared (3/30/2010)
There is no way short of hiring someone and putting them to work, to fully verify that someone knows the skills they are claiming. None that's realistic, anyway.You've seen plenty of people who could claim all kinds of expertise, but who couldn't answer simple basics in an interview. I'm sure you've experienced the people who make it through the whole hiring process, go to work, and promptly prove that they are competent only at getting themselves hired. I know I sure have!
Even the idea of "renting someone to do the tech interview" is really just another type of peer review. And subject to gaming and falsification. How can a manager tell if the person he's asking to do the tech interview even knows how to do that?
If you ever sat through one of my interviews, you would change your mind about that. I only need an hour or so and no "gamer" can make it through it.
If it isn't a system that can be implemented in a perfectly codifiable manner by any manager who needs it, it doesn't resolve the problem being addressed. I also have to admit that I have doubts about the perfection of your system. I can easily believe it hasn't failed for you yet, but I have never seen any human endeavor produce a perfect system. Doesn't mean they don't exist, but I do have my doubts about it.
The most obvious flaw in it is that you can't possibly carry out the kind of intensity on an interview on all subjects about SQL that might ever be required. Your knowledge of T-SQL is quite possibly unsurpassed, but if I remember correctly, you are far from expert on SSIS, SSRS, and a few other areas of MS SQL Server. If you aren't yourself an expert on SSIS, would your interview process actually suss out the difference between competence at SSIS and expertise at SSIS? (If I'm mistaken about your competence in SSIS, fill in that blank with some other area of SQL Server at which you aren't one of the top people in the world.)
Yes that was what i wanted to ask also. And probably Jeff knows all the subject areas he is meant to handle/interview on thoroughly well that is very possible. The point is just vast majority of managers don't and don't need to. They ask in detail on some areas and trivia on others and make a judgement call *largely* based on what you answer + some intuition. Plus almost all workplaces have a period where you need to prove yourself before you get hands on on production. Majority 'gamers' don't make it through that anyways.
I've taken over two systems in two prior jobs where DBAs had been employed for years, where just taking a reasonably educated look at the databases, I could conclude that they had indeed gamed both their hiring and their continued employment.
The problem was, nobody else in either place had the know-how to call them out on it, so they got away with horrible practices for years in both cases.
The problem with "proving yourself" is that to do so, you have to be compared to something/someone else. There has to be an ideal before you can judge deviations from it.
Nothing will make that kind of thing impossible. There are plenty of things that can make it more difficult to get away with.
- Gus "GSquared", RSVP, OODA, MAP, NMVP, FAQ, SAT, SQL, DNA, RNA, UOI, IOU, AM, PM, AD, BC, BCE, USA, UN, CF, ROFL, LOL, ETC
Property of The Thread
"Nobody knows the age of the human race, but everyone agrees it's old enough to know better." - Anon
March 30, 2010 at 12:26 pm
WayneS (3/30/2010)
Kit G (3/30/2010)
I just realized I'm not understanding the context of a word being used here. That word is "gamer".From the search I did on the Internet and various web dictionaries, the only definitions I could find pertained to someone who played role-playing games (Dungeons and Dragons, etc.) or someone who played computer games, either computer, console or online.
What I'm getting from the context is someone who cheats on the exams for certifications. And if someone can direct me to a different definition, I would appreciate that.
I think it's being used in the context of the person is playing a hiring game... the process of getting hired becomes a game where they'll say/do anything, and will learn just enough to sound like they can do the job without having the actual skills to do so. If this person feels that part of the game is to acquire certifications, then they will utilize braindumps, etc. to get the certification without necessarily having the knowledge.
No... you're quite correct about SSIS and SSRS. The difference between myself and many managers is before I'd conduct interviews for a position that required either or both, I would either have taught myself enough about the subject to be able to flush out gamers or enlist the services of one of the folks from the local PASS group that does.
--Jeff Moden
Change is inevitable... Change for the better is not.
March 30, 2010 at 12:29 pm
Jeff Moden (3/30/2010)
WayneS (3/30/2010)
I think it's being used in the context of the person is playing a hiring game... the process of getting hired becomes a game where they'll say/do anything, and will learn just enough to sound like they can do the job without having the actual skills to do so. If this person feels that part of the game is to acquire certifications, then they will utilize braindumps, etc. to get the certification without necessarily having the knowledge.
No... you're quite correct about SSIS and SSRS.
I think you got the wrong quote.
Jason...AKA CirqueDeSQLeil
_______________________________________________
I have given a name to my pain...MCM SQL Server, MVP
SQL RNNR
Posting Performance Based Questions - Gail Shaw[/url]
Learn Extended Events
March 30, 2010 at 1:21 pm
WayneS (3/30/2010)
Jeff Moden (3/30/2010)
If you ever sat through one of my interviews, you would change your mind about that. I only need an hour or so and no "gamer" can make it through it.I think I'd like to watch you conduct an interview... I'm just not sure I'd want to be the person you're interviewing.
I would love to watch this as well. Actually, sitting through a mock interview with Jeff would be an eye opener. It would test my knowledge, or the lack there of. I wouldn't be surprised if I said a lot of "I don't know, but I'd start with BOL, then go to online forums like SSC to see if others have had similar problems or issues."
March 30, 2010 at 1:30 pm
Jeff Moden (3/30/2010)
No... you're quite correct about SSIS and SSRS. The difference between myself and many managers is before I'd conduct interviews for a position that required either or both, I would either have taught myself enough about the subject to be able to flush out gamers or enlist the services of one of the folks from the local PASS group that does.
Which is just another version of peer review, and a completely valid one.
If there were a group of people you trusted, whom you knew had, between them, a vast amount of expertise on SQL Server and all its myriad systems, and one of them personally told you that a candidate for your company had excellent SSIS skills, would you consider that good enough on that point? Would that fulfil the same validation as asking a local PASS member to sit in on a tech interview on that person? (Assuming it was on a subject, like SSIS, where your own expertise wasn't enough to feel you could do an in-depth interview yourself.)
I'm not asking if you'd skip interviewing that person. I'm just asking if a personal referal from a known expert would be enough to cover that requirement. You'd still, of course, personally interview in order to test for personality fit, general knowledge of the technology, and to double-check at least a bit of the specific technology (SSIS in this case).
Or would a referal like that carry no weight?
- Gus "GSquared", RSVP, OODA, MAP, NMVP, FAQ, SAT, SQL, DNA, RNA, UOI, IOU, AM, PM, AD, BC, BCE, USA, UN, CF, ROFL, LOL, ETC
Property of The Thread
"Nobody knows the age of the human race, but everyone agrees it's old enough to know better." - Anon
March 30, 2010 at 1:40 pm
Lynn Pettis (3/30/2010)
WayneS (3/30/2010)
Jeff Moden (3/30/2010)
If you ever sat through one of my interviews, you would change your mind about that. I only need an hour or so and no "gamer" can make it through it.I think I'd like to watch you conduct an interview... I'm just not sure I'd want to be the person you're interviewing.
I would love to watch this as well. Actually, sitting through a mock interview with Jeff would be an eye opener. It would test my knowledge, or the lack there of. I wouldn't be surprised if I said a lot of "I don't know, but I'd start with BOL, then go to online forums like SSC to see if others have had similar problems or issues."
Ha, that would be quite the interview. I know I would say a lot of the same thing - Dunno, look in BOL then call Jeff or Lynn to see if they knew the answer.
Jason...AKA CirqueDeSQLeil
_______________________________________________
I have given a name to my pain...MCM SQL Server, MVP
SQL RNNR
Posting Performance Based Questions - Gail Shaw[/url]
Learn Extended Events
March 30, 2010 at 1:43 pm
GSquared (3/30/2010)
Jeff Moden (3/30/2010)
No... you're quite correct about SSIS and SSRS. The difference between myself and many managers is before I'd conduct interviews for a position that required either or both, I would either have taught myself enough about the subject to be able to flush out gamers or enlist the services of one of the folks from the local PASS group that does.Which is just another version of peer review, and a completely valid one.
If there were a group of people you trusted, whom you knew had, between them, a vast amount of expertise on SQL Server and all its myriad systems, and one of them personally told you that a candidate for your company had excellent SSIS skills, would you consider that good enough on that point? Would that fulfil the same validation as asking a local PASS member to sit in on a tech interview on that person? (Assuming it was on a subject, like SSIS, where your own expertise wasn't enough to feel you could do an in-depth interview yourself.)
I'm not asking if you'd skip interviewing that person. I'm just asking if a personal referal from a known expert would be enough to cover that requirement. You'd still, of course, personally interview in order to test for personality fit, general knowledge of the technology, and to double-check at least a bit of the specific technology (SSIS in this case).
Or would a referal like that carry no weight?
That is the point of the peer review for me. Well respected individuals say you know something on the subject and it weighs a little more.
However, the interview still must be conducted.
Jason...AKA CirqueDeSQLeil
_______________________________________________
I have given a name to my pain...MCM SQL Server, MVP
SQL RNNR
Posting Performance Based Questions - Gail Shaw[/url]
Learn Extended Events
March 30, 2010 at 1:44 pm
GSquared (3/30/2010)
Jeff Moden (3/30/2010)
No... you're quite correct about SSIS and SSRS. The difference between myself and many managers is before I'd conduct interviews for a position that required either or both, I would either have taught myself enough about the subject to be able to flush out gamers or enlist the services of one of the folks from the local PASS group that does.Which is just another version of peer review, and a completely valid one.
If there were a group of people you trusted, whom you knew had, between them, a vast amount of expertise on SQL Server and all its myriad systems, and one of them personally told you that a candidate for your company had excellent SSIS skills, would you consider that good enough on that point? Would that fulfil the same validation as asking a local PASS member to sit in on a tech interview on that person? (Assuming it was on a subject, like SSIS, where your own expertise wasn't enough to feel you could do an in-depth interview yourself.)
I'm not asking if you'd skip interviewing that person. I'm just asking if a personal referal from a known expert would be enough to cover that requirement. You'd still, of course, personally interview in order to test for personality fit, general knowledge of the technology, and to double-check at least a bit of the specific technology (SSIS in this case).
Or would a referal like that carry no weight?
Taking Gus's question one more step, if a person interviewing with you was someone like myself or Grant, or Gus, or Jason, or Bob, or Jack; how much of what you know of that person from the forums here on SSC would play a part in your decision making process?
March 30, 2010 at 1:46 pm
If any are interested, I posted my blog on the topic. A greater bit of depth needs to be done with the topic. I figure this is a starting point as far as the blog is concerned.
Jason...AKA CirqueDeSQLeil
_______________________________________________
I have given a name to my pain...MCM SQL Server, MVP
SQL RNNR
Posting Performance Based Questions - Gail Shaw[/url]
Learn Extended Events
March 30, 2010 at 1:47 pm
CirquedeSQLeil (3/30/2010)
GSquared (3/30/2010)
Jeff Moden (3/30/2010)
No... you're quite correct about SSIS and SSRS. The difference between myself and many managers is before I'd conduct interviews for a position that required either or both, I would either have taught myself enough about the subject to be able to flush out gamers or enlist the services of one of the folks from the local PASS group that does.Which is just another version of peer review, and a completely valid one.
If there were a group of people you trusted, whom you knew had, between them, a vast amount of expertise on SQL Server and all its myriad systems, and one of them personally told you that a candidate for your company had excellent SSIS skills, would you consider that good enough on that point? Would that fulfil the same validation as asking a local PASS member to sit in on a tech interview on that person? (Assuming it was on a subject, like SSIS, where your own expertise wasn't enough to feel you could do an in-depth interview yourself.)
I'm not asking if you'd skip interviewing that person. I'm just asking if a personal referral from a known expert would be enough to cover that requirement. You'd still, of course, personally interview in order to test for personality fit, general knowledge of the technology, and to double-check at least a bit of the specific technology (SSIS in this case).
Or would a referral like that carry no weight?
That is the point of the peer review for me. Well respected individuals say you know something on the subject and it weighs a little more.
However, the interview still must be conducted.
I have to agree. When we hired a co-worker from a previous employer, I know that my recommendation carried a lot of weight with my boss, but this individual had to sell himself to an interview committee (of which I was not a part). He was the unanimous first choice of the committee and he hasn't disappointed my boss in the least.
March 30, 2010 at 8:58 pm
CirquedeSQLeil (3/30/2010)
If any are interested, I posted my blog on the topic. A greater bit of depth needs to be done with the topic. I figure this is a starting point as far as the blog is concerned.
Jason,
The blog provides an excellent summary of what we've been talking about so far. Having it all in one place is nice.
Thanks!
Wayne
Microsoft Certified Master: SQL Server 2008
Author - SQL Server T-SQL Recipes
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