March 29, 2010 at 5:18 pm
Gift Peddie (3/29/2010)
I find your arrogance appalling. You refuse to say anything about yourself, but want to know our MCP # (note: it's a MCP #, not a MCITP #). Since your claiming to have certifications, why don't you provide us with your MCP #?
Please post your MCITP number so I will know you are qualified to participate in an academic discussion about post MCITP credential. The reason is when I registered for my MCDBA upgrade exam the system checks to make sure I had MCDBA and I have passed 70-431. So please post your MCITP DBA number so we can continue.
No, no, no. You show me yours, then I'll show you mine 🙂
Wayne
Microsoft Certified Master: SQL Server 2008
Author - SQL Server T-SQL Recipes
March 29, 2010 at 5:24 pm
Gift Peddie (3/29/2010)
Please post your MCITP number so I will know you are qualified to participate in an academic discussion about post MCITP credential. The reason is when I registered for my MCDBA upgrade exam the system checks to make sure I had MCDBA and I have passed 70-431. So please post your MCITP DBA number so we can continue.
The record is stuck, get off it. It doesn't matter if we are certified or not. We are qualified to have this discussion. We are SQL Server professionals, and I really don't need Microsofts MCITP to demonstrate my knowledge and abilities with MS SQL Server.
March 29, 2010 at 5:26 pm
Yes I concur with what Lynn said. And I find myself under no compulsion to present my credentials to you. Thanks.
March 29, 2010 at 5:30 pm
Michael Meierruth (3/29/2010)
Jeff Moden (3/29/2010)
Gift Peddie (3/28/2010)
The credential being academically discussed may cost Microsoft at least one hundred million dollars in sales because Buick employees may not qualify so is 75 percent of Indiana SQL Server users.Oddly enough and probably to the utter amazement and total disbelief of the others engaged on this thread, I actually understand that. Let's hope displaced Buick employees, the Indiana SQL Server users, and some of those on this thread understand, as well.
Jeff, can you explain or point to a source of information that goes into the details of this. Thnx.
Sure... Buick simply went away with the stroke of an executive's pen and the autoworkers there now have to train themselves in a new walk of life. They must start over on whole new turf. A lot of very respected individuals on this very forum started out the same way that those Buick people are having to now... mostly due to a lack of personal funding, they must become self motivated, self trained, and eventually expert in what they do.
I have (as many others have), even recently on this forum, borne the brunt of attacks by what I call "ring knockers" who don't knock me for my inabilities in SQL but will certainly knock me for where I may put a comma in a sentence or what I may call something simply because they can't attack in any other manner. My concern (and apparently Gift's concern) is that a great many able bodied and willing-minded people who have the skill but not necessarily the wherewithall to become certified would be locked out of opportunities by those same ring-knockers (she refers to thems as "elite") if they had their way.
My poor words can't express my concern well enough nor explain it well enough because I'm a data troll and not an orator. With that in mind, here's a quote from an individual that has stated my concern possibly better than I'll ever be able to...
Grant Fritchey (3/29/2010)
First, I'm not crazy about a lot of the suggested directions for a middle-level certification that have been put forward so far. It's not that any of the ideas are bad, but accumulatively it looks too much like we're unionizing the position with the time in rate requirements, the peer review board and other things. I'm sure it's reflective of how I came into the industry, but I don't want to see us eliminate the possibility of people to simply hack their way to the top without certs, degrees or time in rate.
The world of data processing, be it in databases or the world of GUI's, is the last frontier where a motivated self-studying individual can actually "hack their way to the top without certs, degrees or time in rate". Let's be careful not to turn that world into an exclusive club. There are already enough companies that require a Bachelors Degree to be a filing clerk. 😀
--Jeff Moden
Change is inevitable... Change for the better is not.
March 29, 2010 at 5:39 pm
I met your requirements and am still waiting for the discussion.
I would like you to tell me how you can improve an advanced credential that excludes Buick and Chevrolet employees who are displaced that are highly skilled men and women who built America. I was in the suburb of Buick city I had to drive one hour to take the standard exams so who and how will you include the highly skilled that needs training in Saginaw, Baycity, Flint in Michigan and Fort Wayne and surrounding area in Indiana. There is no PASS and who are their peers? Please tell me because I would like to know how to improve a credential that excludes about 50,000 highly skilled displaced men and women in just two states.
So all peers must be MCITP no weaver, If it is a minority fifty percent of the peers must be of minority. If a candidate fails the corrected project must be public so I can test it. I can create ten version of the project posted and in all RDBMS. There is no altruism in commerce so all reviewers must be MCITP in all areas, so I will have to take the T-SQL exams and everybody will take the BI exams.
Kind regards,
Gift Peddie
March 29, 2010 at 5:44 pm
Jeff Moden (3/29/2010)
Grant Fritchey (3/29/2010)
First, I'm not crazy about a lot of the suggested directions for a middle-level certification that have been put forward so far. It's not that any of the ideas are bad, but accumulatively it looks too much like we're unionizing the position with the time in rate requirements, the peer review board and other things. I'm sure it's reflective of how I came into the industry, but I don't want to see us eliminate the possibility of people to simply hack their way to the top without certs, degrees or time in rate.The world of data processing, be it in databases or the world of GUI's, is the last frontier where a motivated self-studying individual can actually "hack their way to the top without certs, degrees or time in rate". Let's be careful not to turn that world into an exclusive club. There are already enough companies that require a Bachelors Degree to be a filing clerk. 😀
If they can hack their way to the top, why couldn't they put in the time to get a degree?
We aren't trying to eliminate people, and wouldn't be doing any more so than the current requirements imposed by some employers that you must have time in service, a degree, a certification, or know somebody really well. I think many of us have already run into that door several times. When is the last time you applied for a job that said no experience required? Most Sr. Level jobs I see available require a minimum of 5 years experience. Thus if you are a Jr without the five years - you're only going up if there is a spot open on your team and you have proved your stuff internally and the manager likes you.
If you are a Jr and looking to move to a different company, having done two years service already - why not get a certification that doesn't hurt you more than it could help?
Many of us are goal setters. That is how people crawl to the top of the heap - they set goals. This would be one more goal. If I start down the career path and blow money on a cert and then find out it isn't for me - I have lost money and study time. If I start down a path and decide I don't like it but don't get certified because the next certification is at MCJ - then I haven't lost that money.
I think the MCJ will do a lot less to keep people out than it would to enhance our field. The MCM is more likely to impose restrictions than the MCJ.
What do we say to the employer that requires us to be employed for a year before applying for a promotion? What about the employer that requires us to be employed for a year before we enroll in 401k or before we can get a pay raise?
Jason...AKA CirqueDeSQLeil
_______________________________________________
I have given a name to my pain...MCM SQL Server, MVP
SQL RNNR
Posting Performance Based Questions - Gail Shaw[/url]
Learn Extended Events
March 29, 2010 at 5:48 pm
dma-669038 (3/29/2010)
Jeff, part of the reason i have seen this happens is managers are only informed on the technologies they use..i mean how can you interview someone on a technology you dont know much about? How much a manager needs to know is a very debatable subject but majority know a *little something* of what they use and consider it enough. There are the rare few who have graduated from ground level DBAs and want to keep up with the technology for for most it is just too much effort. Thoughts?
Yes... it's much the same for those of us that apply for jobs... we only know what we know... but we can all learn and we should all know our limits and ask for help when we bump into those limits.
Unless an HR manager has a strong System or Application DBA background, they should know their limitations and not be filtering resumes for DBA's for the IT Department. Let the IT manager do that. Once the IT manager get's the resume, (s)he must realize his/her own limitations, as well. If they don't know well enough how to interview someone for a position, then they should find someone instead of simply "winging" it or trusting in the letters after a persons name or trusting in claims of experience.
Remember that "9 out of 10" dude I was talking about? My manager, his manager, and her manager had all talked to that "genius" and they all wanted to hire him based on his resume. Then my boss realized that he'd been burned before and said "I'll give you my decision after Jeff interviews him". And, as I said before, managers in one company know managers in other companies. If the manager doing the hiring doesn't know enough to conduct a proper interview in the field, (s)he should rent some help from one of those other managers. It's simple and it's inexpensive... especially when it leads to hiring "the right person" who may or may not have any certifications.
--Jeff Moden
Change is inevitable... Change for the better is not.
March 29, 2010 at 5:49 pm
Gift Peddie (3/29/2010)
I met your requirements and am still waiting for the discussion.
I would like you to tell me how you can improve an advanced credential that excludes Buick and Chevrolet employees who are displaced that are highly skilled men and women who built America. I was in the suburb of Buick city I had to drive one hour to take the standard exams so who and how will you include the highly skilled that needs training in Saginaw, Baycity, Flint in Michigan and Fort Wayne and surrounding area in Indiana. There is no PASS and who are their peers? Please tell me because I would like to know how to improve a credential that excludes about 50,000 highly skilled displaced men and women in just two states.
So all peers must be MCITP no weaver, If it is a minority fifty percent of the peers must be of minority. If a candidate fails the corrected project must be public so I can test it. I can create ten version of the project posted and in all RDBMS. There is no altruism in commerce so all reviewers must be MCITP in all areas, so I will have to take the T-SQL exams and everybody will take the BI exams.
What are you doing about it yourself?
Jason...AKA CirqueDeSQLeil
_______________________________________________
I have given a name to my pain...MCM SQL Server, MVP
SQL RNNR
Posting Performance Based Questions - Gail Shaw[/url]
Learn Extended Events
March 29, 2010 at 5:49 pm
Okay, confused. I thought it was Pontiac that was going away, not Buick. I could be wrong, wouldn't be the first time and definately won't be the last.
I agree that we need to keep the cert from becoming a road-block. I have worked (and do work) with several individuals that have no formal CS education but have demonstrated top-notch skills as developers and database professionals.
Unfortunately, we can't control what companies require to get hired. I have seen job adverts that basically said if you are certified, don't bother applying. Doesn't give those of us with experience any benefit there. That is one of the reasons I actually got my Masters degree, too many job posting saying Bachelors required Masters preferred. One of the reasons I constantly consider getting my MS certs, too many times in job posting it is obvious that those with the certs are the ones that will get the interviews.
All of that, however, should stop us from trying to figure out what a mid-level certification should be based on or how it may be administered. That is one of the great things about this community, we can throw out ideas, mash them around about and see what turns out. What doesn't help is when all that is said is that it won't work. No explaination, no constructive ideas on how to adress those concerns, just NO.
If we work on this as an academic endeavour, looking at various ideas, comparing and modifying hem, we could potentially develop a framework that could possibly work. Is it wrong to try?
March 29, 2010 at 5:50 pm
dma-669038 (3/29/2010)
Well..my user group serves southern indiana and i dont see any reason why those folks will not qualify..and whether or not MS is going to run this certs itself is not clear, we are not that far yet and by God i'd be thrilled if we got that far. So if 75 % of northern Indiana folks and Buick story..perhaps for some other thread ?::-)
See two posts above.
--Jeff Moden
Change is inevitable... Change for the better is not.
March 29, 2010 at 5:53 pm
The world of data processing, be it in databases or the world of GUI's, is the last frontier where a motivated self-studying individual can actually "hack their way to the top without certs, degrees or time in rate". Let's be careful not to turn that world into an exclusive club.
I definitely agree with this sentiment. I have a degree (albeit in English Lit), but not much in the way of certifications. As a developer, I'm 75% self-taught. And I keep that in mind when hiring -- I'm much more interested in how you communicate your skills, initialy through a resume then through the interview process, than I am by what papers you can show me as evidence of your skill set.
However, the existence of a certification process with specific requirements does not necessarily lead to elitism. If there are techies who have the chops to "hack their way to the top" they could almost certainly figure out a way to hack their way through the certification process -- if they saw that as worthwhile.
Even if part of the process is to put in 5, or 7, or 10 years, a "hack' could accomplish that. The key is to making the ends justify the means.
It seems to me that what Lynn and GSquared and dma and Paul and Dixie and the others who have been pounding away at this thread are striving for is, not just to fill a recognized gap in the cert ladder, but also to develop a certification that has enough real-world value that it would be worth going through the process.
That the process itself be fair and inclusive is clearly a priority. But if in the end, all you are left with is a piece of paper that tells no one anything about your skills, then we're basically back at the status quo.
So, I too would like to see a cert that, yes, even a former Buick employee could strive for, but also, and more importantly, that at the end of what might be a difficult process, he or she has something with value; something to be proud of; something that lets the world know: this is what i can do.
March 29, 2010 at 5:58 pm
Jeff Moden (3/29/2010)
dma-669038 (3/29/2010)
Jeff, part of the reason i have seen this happens is managers are only informed on the technologies they use..i mean how can you interview someone on a technology you dont know much about? How much a manager needs to know is a very debatable subject but majority know a *little something* of what they use and consider it enough. There are the rare few who have graduated from ground level DBAs and want to keep up with the technology for for most it is just too much effort. Thoughts?Yes... it's much the same for those of us that apply for jobs... we only know what we know... but we can all learn and we should all know our limits and ask for help when we bump into those limits.
Unless an HR manager has a strong System or Application DBA background, they should know their limitations and not be filtering resumes for DBA's for the IT Department. Let the IT manager do that. Once the IT manager get's the resume, (s)he must realize his/her own limitations, as well. If they don't know well enough how to interview someone for a position, then they should find someone instead of simply "winging" it or trusting in the letters after a persons name or trusting in claims of experience.
Remember that "9 out of 10" dude I was talking about? My manager, his manager, and her manager had all talked to that "genius" and they all wanted to hire him based on his resume. Then my boss realized that he'd been burned before and said "I'll give you my decision after Jeff interviews him". And, as I said before, managers in one company know managers in other companies. If the manager doing the hiring doesn't know enough to conduct a proper interview in the field, (s)he should rent some help from one of those other managers. It's simple and it's inexpensive... especially when it leads to hiring "the right person" who may or may not have any certifications.
Yes, well said, thanks.
March 29, 2010 at 6:00 pm
What are you doing about it yourself?
That is a fair question I should be live in the next few months providing what I was doing one MSDN and here with content that is education specific. That is the skills required page with content, that uses the BOL, the Base Class and Asp.net, the later in C# because that is what I know.
Kind regards,
Gift Peddie
March 29, 2010 at 6:02 pm
Gift Peddie (3/29/2010)
I met your requirements and am still waiting for the discussion.
I would like you to tell me how you can improve an advanced credential that excludes Buick and Chevrolet employees who are displaced that are highly skilled men and women who built America. I was in the suburb of Buick city I had to drive one hour to take the standard exams so who and how will you include the highly skilled that needs training in Saginaw, Baycity, Flint in Michigan and Fort Wayne and surrounding area in Indiana. There is no PASS and who are their peers? Please tell me because I would like to know how to improve a credential that excludes about 50,000 highly skilled displaced men and women in just two states.
MCJ does not exclude them - if they are in the Database field. Being displaced from work has no bearing on whether you are working with the product or not. Has no bearing on whether you have the skillset or not.
Driving some distance is not an issue, frankly. I drove an hour each direction to and from work every day. To take an exam, I would also have to drive an hour. I don't see how that excludes anybody who wants to do it and who sets the goal to do it. If it is your goal to do, use some critical thinking and figure it out.
You are confusing your personal timeline with an economic crisis that happens to affect the entire country. As for your neck of the woods it is the auto industry. In my neck of the woods it is all industries.
If there is no PASS in that area, then start one. That's what high level SQL professionals do. I am in the process of helping rebuild the PASS chapter down here.
Again, the credential does not exclude somebody who is willing to be in the industry.
As for exclusion, how can you speak to that when you yourself are trying to exclude every member of the SQL community who is not certified? Isn't that a double standard?
So all peers must be MCITP no weaver, If it is a minority fifty percent of the peers must be of minority. If a candidate fails the corrected project must be public so I can test it. I can create ten version of the project posted and in all RDBMS. There is no altruism in commerce so all reviewers must be MCITP in all areas, so I will have to take the T-SQL exams and everybody will take the BI exams.
Who said anything about weavers and equality and minimum numbers of people certified?
How can you certify somebody who does not want to be certified? What are the current statistics of certification across all populations of ethnicity, gender, sexual orientation, religion and creed? Ethnicity and Gender have no bearing on certification. If you want to be certified that is your choice and your choice alone.
Revealing the answers to an exam for public consumption is a violation of NDA by all certifications. That leads to cheating. You get to see the scores for each of the areas relevant to the exam - no more and no less. This is not a platform agnostic certification. Any RDBMS outside of SQL server would be solely for your own personal gratification.
I can buy off on the review board requirements of being certified in all MCITP for SQL domains. That is completely legitimate.
Jason...AKA CirqueDeSQLeil
_______________________________________________
I have given a name to my pain...MCM SQL Server, MVP
SQL RNNR
Posting Performance Based Questions - Gail Shaw[/url]
Learn Extended Events
March 29, 2010 at 6:03 pm
CirquedeSQLeil (3/29/2010)
Jeff Moden (3/29/2010)
Grant Fritchey (3/29/2010)
First, I'm not crazy about a lot of the suggested directions for a middle-level certification that have been put forward so far. It's not that any of the ideas are bad, but accumulatively it looks too much like we're unionizing the position with the time in rate requirements, the peer review board and other things. I'm sure it's reflective of how I came into the industry, but I don't want to see us eliminate the possibility of people to simply hack their way to the top without certs, degrees or time in rate.The world of data processing, be it in databases or the world of GUI's, is the last frontier where a motivated self-studying individual can actually "hack their way to the top without certs, degrees or time in rate". Let's be careful not to turn that world into an exclusive club. There are already enough companies that require a Bachelors Degree to be a filing clerk. 😀
If they can hack their way to the top, why couldn't they put in the time to get a degree?
We aren't trying to eliminate people, and wouldn't be doing any more so than the current requirements imposed by some employers that you must have time in service, a degree, a certification, or know somebody really well. I think many of us have already run into that door several times. When is the last time you applied for a job that said no experience required? Most Sr. Level jobs I see available require a minimum of 5 years experience. Thus if you are a Jr without the five years - you're only going up if there is a spot open on your team and you have proved your stuff internally and the manager likes you.
If you are a Jr and looking to move to a different company, having done two years service already - why not get a certification that doesn't hurt you more than it could help?
Many of us are goal setters. That is how people crawl to the top of the heap - they set goals. This would be one more goal. If I start down the career path and blow money on a cert and then find out it isn't for me - I have lost money and study time. If I start down a path and decide I don't like it but don't get certified because the next certification is at MCJ - then I haven't lost that money.
I think the MCJ will do a lot less to keep people out than it would to enhance our field. The MCM is more likely to impose restrictions than the MCJ.
What do we say to the employer that requires us to be employed for a year before applying for a promotion? What about the employer that requires us to be employed for a year before we enroll in 401k or before we can get a pay raise?
I think I agree whole heartedly with this..and am not sure how many of you have seen the 'other side' of the picture, a whole lot of DBAs/programmers who know *some basics*, find their way into jobs and *stay put* until they are forced into a situation perhaps a Buick like situation where they have to move or learn more. I know atleast 3 organisations where I have seen people like this, people who are constantly cynical about learning, think it is 'boring stuff that geeks do' and yet want to and able to keep jobs and do the bare minimal from googling or other mundane ways. While a forced degre or cert closes the doors for many it imposes some discipline on others like this and somewhat evens out the playing ground for those of us who are more naturally inclined to learn. Yeah it is kinda easy to say if you are not interested you shouuld not be in the job/profession at all but that is hardly the way it is and many of us have to contend and compete with people far less hard working/motivated and yet get by by other means.
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