March 23, 2010 at 9:16 am
I'm generally pro-certification, but specifically anti-Microsoft certification since so much of the information learned for passing their exams are product specific, and therefore, obsolete in relatively short order.
The IEEE Computer Society certifications are examples of excellent certifications that aren't software specific and that I'd like to see American professionals explore more fully.
March 23, 2010 at 9:16 am
Michael Valentine Jones (3/23/2010)
I wouldn’t go as far as to say that certifications are worthless, but I personally give them no weight at all when I look at a resume.I just look at the resume and cover letter to see if they meet the qualifications in the job description and are able to communicate in written English.
I use my own questions in an interview to determine if they are up to the level of technical knowledge that I am looking for. I think that is the best method, because there are no brain dumps of my questions available on the web.
I agree, I have my own set of questions as well. However, I do think that your first statement is a little contradictory. If you give them NO weight in a resume, then as far as I'm concerned they are worthless to you and people applying to your posted job, simply because that is one of the primary reasons people get them in the first place, to put them in their resume. 😀
"Technology is a weird thing. It brings you great gifts with one hand, and it stabs you in the back with the other. ...:-D"
March 23, 2010 at 9:28 am
TravisDBA (3/23/2010)
Michael Valentine Jones (3/23/2010)
I wouldn’t go as far as to say that certifications are worthless, but I personally give them no weight at all when I look at a resume.I just look at the resume and cover letter to see if they meet the qualifications in the job description and are able to communicate in written English.
I use my own questions in an interview to determine if they are up to the level of technical knowledge that I am looking for. I think that is the best method, because there are no brain dumps of my questions available on the web.
I agree, I have my own set of questions as well. However, I do think that your first statement is a little contradictory. If you give them NO weight in a resume, then as far as I'm concerned they are worthless to you and people applying to your posted job, simply because that is one of the primary reasons people get them in the first place, to put them in their resume. 😀
I wouldn't say they are worthless for two reasons:
People may actually learn somthing in the course of getting a certification.
Some employers do give them weight or actually require them.
March 23, 2010 at 9:29 am
What a topical editorial!
Just two weeks ago we were dealing with a client where two of their staff, one a DBA, and one a "SQL Expert" proved to me just how worthless and deceptive certifications are. One guy had three certifications, and the other guy five that they proudly display in their emails just after their names. (To me, this is, and always has been a sign that I am working with someone who does a great job on exams, but likely doesn't have much "in the trenches" experience.)
Well, long story short - these two fellows managed to lock themselves completely out of a database and last we heard, they still have not managed to get back in. They messed around with permissions for days and seem to have made things only worse for themselves - but of course, they wont accept any help because they have certifications to stand by.
Taking an exam to be certified is about as much a marker for proficiency as blowing out a match makes you a "firefighter". This has always been a scam going back to the earliest days of computing. Get a certification by merely forking over thousands (sometimes). THAT is "certified"? Hardly...
Let me ask the general "you"... Would you get on an airplane where the pilot simply paid a bundle to take an exam that then says "Pilot" after their name? Or would you prefer someone who has flown a plane thousands of miles.
If certifications were worth anything - #1, they would be free. #2, They would be based on ACTUAL experience NOT exams (like in most industries). And worst of all #3, the company making the software would NOT be giving the certifications - get a third, unbiased, uninvolved party.
Certifications are good for ONE thing, and ONE thing only - to show you who is trying to shortcut what would otherwise be a requirement for REAL experience. I hire a great many IT workers and for many years, when I see a certification, I am more leery about the prospect than when I don't.
March 23, 2010 at 9:35 am
blandry (3/23/2010)
What a topical editorial!Just two weeks ago we were dealing with a client where two of their staff, one a DBA, and one a "SQL Expert" proved to me just how worthless and deceptive certifications are. One guy had three certifications, and the other guy five that they proudly display in their emails just after their names. (To me, this is, and always has been a sign that I am working with someone who does a great job on exams, but likely doesn't have much "in the trenches" experience.)
Well, long story short - these two fellows managed to lock themselves completely out of a database and last we heard, they still have not managed to get back in. They messed around with permissions for days and seem to have made things only worse for themselves - but of course, they wont accept any help because they have certifications to stand by.
Taking an exam to be certified is about as much a marker for proficiency as blowing out a match makes you a "firefighter". This has always been a scam going back to the earliest days of computing. Get a certification by merely forking over thousands (sometimes). THAT is "certified"? Hardly...
Let me ask the general "you"... Would you get on an airplane where the pilot simply paid a bundle to take an exam that then says "Pilot" after their name? Or would you prefer someone who has flown a plane thousands of miles.
If certifications were worth anything - #1, they would be free. #2, They would be based on ACTUAL experience NOT exams (like in most industries). And worst of all #3, the company making the software would NOT be giving the certifications - get a third, unbiased, uninvolved party.
Certifications are good for ONE thing, and ONE thing only - to show you who is trying to shortcut what would otherwise be a requirement for REAL experience. I hire a great many IT workers and for many years, when I see a certification, I am more leery about the prospect than when I don't.
I could not have said it better myself! Spot on.. 😎
"Technology is a weird thing. It brings you great gifts with one hand, and it stabs you in the back with the other. ...:-D"
March 23, 2010 at 9:38 am
I think developers ought to take certification out of the hands of Microsoft (for which certification is simply a lucrative side business driven by HR departments which can't be bothered to learn anything about their company's line of business) and put it into the hands of a body that represents developers' interests (as the College of Physicians and Surgeons does for doctors or the Bar Association does for lawyers).
I know there are a lot of former Dungeons and Dragons players in our business, but please can we not call it a "guild"? 😉 I like the apprenticeship idea though!
Robb
March 23, 2010 at 9:43 am
...when I see a certification, I am more leery about the prospect than when I don't.
Wow. Imagine working your butt off to get a certification only to have it actually hurt you in your job search. Bummer.
It's understandable to be skeptical of the value of some certifications. But everything else being equal, there's absolutely no reason to believe that, in general, a certification indicates that a person is less qualified than his or her experience and accomplishments would otherwise indicate.
March 23, 2010 at 9:45 am
If you want a good example of what certifications ought to be, look at P.Eng's. IMO they represent a good balance of education, experience, and recommendation of someone who supervised candidate's work.
March 23, 2010 at 9:49 am
Robert.Smith-1001156 (3/23/2010)
I know there are a lot of former Dungeons and Dragons players in our business, but please can we not call it a "guild"? 😉 I like the apprenticeship idea though!Robb
Actually there are still a good number of current Dungeons and Dragons players out here. Why not call it a "Guild"? Other professions have Guilds, why not ours?
March 23, 2010 at 9:51 am
blandry (3/23/2010)
If certifications were worth anything - #1, they would be free. #2, They would be based on ACTUAL experience NOT exams (like in most industries). And worst of all #3, the company making the software would NOT be giving the certifications - get a third, unbiased, uninvolved party.
I have to completely agree with all three points -- especially the 3rd. However, getting appropriate standardized information for measuring the 2nd point is very difficult. How can I compare my experience with anyone else's? Skills are indeed driven by experience and the requirements of the given position.
Another point: I have never worked in an environment that required clustering, log shipping, or most of the typical enterprise level aspects of SQL Server. That doesn't mean that I couldn't study for it and perform those tasks in a simulated environment. Sure it shouldn't speak as loud as experience, but it should count for something.
LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/sqlrv
Website: https://www.sqlrv.com
March 23, 2010 at 9:52 am
I like the P-Eng. cert. That's what I'd like to see in our field.
One difference for us, however, is that the technology is our field. We get silo'd in a large sense with a particular vendor, and not general concepts. There are things you do in SQL server that you would never do in Oracle, and vice versa.
However I do agree with blandry. The vendor ought not to be writing exams.
March 23, 2010 at 9:54 am
GSquared (3/23/2010)
When my dad was in high school, they had a class that had the specific purpose of preparing the students for their standard tests (I think it was the SATs, but I wouldn't swear to that). They all had scores that were well above average, because of the class. Did that mean they were actually better educated than their peers who didn't take that class?
I have to completely agree! I have never had any respect for teaching to an exam. I get very frustrated now when so many schools are oriented solely to preparing students for a standardized exam. Those increases in scores only help the schools and do a great disservice to their students.
LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/sqlrv
Website: https://www.sqlrv.com
March 23, 2010 at 10:01 am
Lynn Pettis (3/23/2010)
Actually there are still a good number of current Dungeons and Dragons players out here. Why not call it a "Guild"? Other professions have Guilds, why not ours?
So people don't have additional reasons to assume we're dorks? :ermm:
How about something professional sounding, like Association of Database Professionals?
March 23, 2010 at 10:02 am
blandry (3/23/2010)
What a topical editorial!Just two weeks ago we were dealing with a client where two of their staff, one a DBA, and one a "SQL Expert" proved to me just how worthless and deceptive certifications are. One guy had three certifications, and the other guy five that they proudly display in their emails just after their names. (To me, this is, and always has been a sign that I am working with someone who does a great job on exams, but likely doesn't have much "in the trenches" experience.)
Well, long story short - these two fellows managed to lock themselves completely out of a database and last we heard, they still have not managed to get back in. They messed around with permissions for days and seem to have made things only worse for themselves - but of course, they wont accept any help because they have certifications to stand by.
Taking an exam to be certified is about as much a marker for proficiency as blowing out a match makes you a "firefighter". This has always been a scam going back to the earliest days of computing. Get a certification by merely forking over thousands (sometimes). THAT is "certified"? Hardly...
Let me ask the general "you"... Would you get on an airplane where the pilot simply paid a bundle to take an exam that then says "Pilot" after their name? Or would you prefer someone who has flown a plane thousands of miles.
If certifications were worth anything - #1, they would be free. #2, They would be based on ACTUAL experience NOT exams (like in most industries). And worst of all #3, the company making the software would NOT be giving the certifications - get a third, unbiased, uninvolved party.
Certifications are good for ONE thing, and ONE thing only - to show you who is trying to shortcut what would otherwise be a requirement for REAL experience. I hire a great many IT workers and for many years, when I see a certification, I am more leery about the prospect than when I don't.
I don't agree with much of what you have said. Sure there are those who are certified that shouldn't touch a database unsupervised, but there are others that get it, so to throw everyone that is certified in the same group is as bad as people who put too much weight on certifications or degrees.
There are many things a certification provides beyond a shortcut for real experience. I just did the tests for MCITP Database Administration 2008. I didn't do it to replace experience, but to help me fill in knowledge gaps because my experience has included every area of SQL Server. Because the industry does not have continuing education requirements like they do in the medical and education professions, I'd like to think the fact that I took the initiative to take the exams shows that I am continually learning and not "resting on my laurels". I could still be doing things the same way I did in SQL Server 7, but there are better ways now, and by taking the exams I'm learning those ways.
Instead of not valuing certifications, they need to be evaluated in light of the whole resume. Sure, if the person has no experience and all the certs, they shouldn't be a Senior DBA, but might be a good candidate for a junior DBA.
I provide more thoughts and my certification experience on my blog here and here, if anyone is interested. Also there was a good link shared on twitter today about a bad certified DBA.
Jack Corbett
Consultant - Straight Path Solutions
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March 23, 2010 at 10:06 am
Michael Valentine Jones (3/23/2010)
Lynn Pettis (3/23/2010)
Actually there are still a good number of current Dungeons and Dragons players out here. Why not call it a "Guild"? Other professions have Guilds, why not ours?
So people don't have additional reasons to assume we're dorks? :ermm:
How about something professional sounding, like Association of Database Professionals?
Well, we do have PASS (Professional Association of SQL Server). Personally I think the certification debate ought to be a priority for the organization. Setting some kind of continuing education should be important as well. I'll have to put it in my platform when I run for the board.:-D
Jack Corbett
Consultant - Straight Path Solutions
Check out these links on how to get faster and more accurate answers:
Forum Etiquette: How to post data/code on a forum to get the best help
Need an Answer? Actually, No ... You Need a Question
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