March 29, 2010 at 7:15 am
Gift Peddie (3/26/2010)
You lost me again. The clause "to be positive that is something to digest" doesn't seem to connect to or follow from the prior clause, but I'm not sure what concept is missing.
Are you saying that it's hard to digest the idea that education is a privilege? If so, please post a thesis on why that should be changed, and I'll read it and see if I agree with you. I currently don't, but I've changed my mind on important matters many times when presented with adequate argument and data on the subject. I suggest a blog post (if you don't already have a blog, it's easy enough to start one). Send me a link once you've posted it. Or, if you feel that someone else has already adequately presented the case for this, refer me to their writings, and I'll study them.
I have provided many technical reasons why I did not agree with the proposed credential and the methodology of validation which are taken as Microsoft bashing and negative. When the privileged thinks education is a privilege that is a different topic.
That doesn't actually answer my question. Did you not understand what I was asking? If so, please let me know which part of the question to clarify.
- Gus "GSquared", RSVP, OODA, MAP, NMVP, FAQ, SAT, SQL, DNA, RNA, UOI, IOU, AM, PM, AD, BC, BCE, USA, UN, CF, ROFL, LOL, ETC
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"Nobody knows the age of the human race, but everyone agrees it's old enough to know better." - Anon
March 29, 2010 at 7:23 am
Just my 1p worth, and brief (still knackered from 6 weeks of non-stop need-it-yesterday development).
Each shop I've worked at has put a different set of criteria up front when hiring. To some it was credentials, and the idiots were impressed by my ludicrously useless PhD in biochemistry. At least one of these companies would have cheerily and knowingly hired a brain-dumper because it was all about ticking a box and getting another bum on a seat. Those with a funky new cert would have their arm pulled off by some of these companies.
To many others, it's been service time, with a big emphasis on time spent in the relevant industry.
Somewhere in the middle are those which endeavour to test to destruction every poor sod who submits a cv.
Out on a crazy limb are those who hire a contractor for 3 months on the basis of how they will fit in with the rest of the team.
The goalposts move - and change size - so fast at this end of the pitch, how can we ever score? But we do. There's no right or wrong way, or exam certificate. It depends 🙂
For fast, accurate and documented assistance in answering your questions, please read this article.
Understanding and using APPLY, (I) and (II) Paul White
Hidden RBAR: Triangular Joins / The "Numbers" or "Tally" Table: What it is and how it replaces a loop Jeff Moden
March 29, 2010 at 7:38 am
Gift Peddie (3/28/2010)
dma-669038 (3/28/2010)
I did'nt notice that...yes bashing big companies is a hobby for lots of people. But wrong place, wrong forum. Anyway hope she has found other stuff to do now.I will stop because it is easier to say I am Microsoft bashing, negative and not contributing than to address the very important issues I have raised.
BTW the SQL Server you use today is the work of the late Jim Grey who told IBM no. So I am now saying no to whatever comes from this discussion. Now have a nice day.
I haven't seen any issues you've raised, important or not. Not that I could understand, anyway.
I would seriously recommend taking a basic grammar and writing course. There are several schools in Houston (if that's where you are) that offer that kind of service. It's entirely possible that the whole problem here is that it's very, very difficult to understand what you're writing, since it isn't standard English. If you can resolve that issue, we might be able to communicate more effectively.
- Gus "GSquared", RSVP, OODA, MAP, NMVP, FAQ, SAT, SQL, DNA, RNA, UOI, IOU, AM, PM, AD, BC, BCE, USA, UN, CF, ROFL, LOL, ETC
Property of The Thread
"Nobody knows the age of the human race, but everyone agrees it's old enough to know better." - Anon
March 29, 2010 at 7:40 am
Jeff Moden (3/29/2010)
Gift Peddie (3/28/2010)
The credential being academically discussed may cost Microsoft at least one hundred million dollars in sales because Buick employees may not qualify so is 75 percent of Indiana SQL Server users.Oddly enough and probably to the utter amazement and total disbelief of the others engaged on this thread, I actually understand that. Let's hope displaced Buick employees, the Indiana SQL Server users, and some of those on this thread understand, as well.
I certainly don't understand it. Jeff, can you translate for me?
- Gus "GSquared", RSVP, OODA, MAP, NMVP, FAQ, SAT, SQL, DNA, RNA, UOI, IOU, AM, PM, AD, BC, BCE, USA, UN, CF, ROFL, LOL, ETC
Property of The Thread
"Nobody knows the age of the human race, but everyone agrees it's old enough to know better." - Anon
March 29, 2010 at 7:49 am
It's entirely possible that the whole problem here is that it's very, very difficult to understand what you're writing, since it isn't standard English.
It is Broadcast Journalism English written as spoken words and word count is the most important.
Kind regards,
Gift Peddie
March 29, 2010 at 7:51 am
I would think certs mid level or entry level or any level are only as important as one deems them to be. Yes as so many people are saying it is impossible standardise the way companies recruit people and it is a crazy world out there when it comes to what carries value over what.
As far as MCM goes as far as i am concerned - it is not a cost factor, or atleast not the cost factor alone. It is cost versus payoffs. How many problems do we actually face at work that require knowledge at that level? Personally to me not that many and I work at an enterprise level organisation. If I am not convinced i need it how am i going to get my employer to see how? I think practically the only point Gift made and I understood and agreed with was that MCM was meant for Microsoft employees and Microsoft partners.
To me the industry appears somewhat polarised at this point between people who are over qualified to work ordinary jobs -either via MCM or being a top notch speaker/author and the whole rest of us who are simply clueless on what credentials we have outside of plain mundane work experience. Yeah if there were lot of people like Jeff that would be enough probably but there aren't. And hopefully some kind of mid cert might help, again might help that is all. But worth talking about definitely.
March 29, 2010 at 7:52 am
Lynn Pettis (3/29/2010)
Grant,I can understand you concerns. We would be interested in hearing your suggestons to address those concerns. To be honest, I think we are trying to put together something that fits between MCITP and MCM and would represent something that truely indicates that the bearer has reasonable knowledge and experience with MS SQL Server. Something that would be difficult to obtain from braindumps, and would (if a candidate hold it) provide HR and hiring managers some level of confidance that the individual actually knows something.
Microsofts MCM is, in my opinion, out of reach for most of us, but if we had that certification it would demonstrate significant knowledge beyond many others after having spent three weeks and 18,000 + hotel/food/other expenses to obtain. Personally, I can think of many other things to spend that kind of money on other than MCM, getting out of debt comes to mind.
There needs to be something between MCITP and MCM that is easier for the masses to achieve, but not as easy to achieve as the MCITP.
I agree that there is a pretty vast chasm between MCM and MCITP. To fill that gap you need to provide something that:
1) Is consistently measurable. One person passing MCM or MCITP is same as another person passing them, so this thing would also need that
2) Is supported internationally. We would need to have this thing spread, as quickly as possible all over the place. Based on it's placement between MCITP, which is fairly ubiquitous and people can access it relatively easily (no more than a 2-3 hour drive in most of the western world) and MCM, which is only availabe from one place on the planet, ever, we'd need something that covered more territory and would be as accessible as it could be made to be. It depends on the governing board of the organization that ends up backing this cert to perform that task.
3) Doesn't become a barrier to entry. I'm pretty adamant that we don't want to end up like the plumbers union where there are obscene sets of rules to break into our industry and we get businesses to enforce those rules for us. This needs to be an additional sale point, like MCM, that makes you more marketable, providing an accepted measure, of higher stature than the MCITP.
Meeting #3 just means not placing silly requirements like apprenticeships or time in rate into the certification. Meeting #1 & #2 are the difficult parts of the problem. Personally, I'd like to see a practicle set of tests, but that might mean breaking this cert down into lots of little certs. Then you have to come up with multiple practical tests, because if you only have a few, people will do the equivalent of brain dumps on those. But I think these are relatively easy problems to solve.
The first hard problem is getting a certification board, an organization that maintains the certification and does it in such a way that most organizations and people can reliably point to it and say, "there's a valid cert." Unless we build, from scratch an new body, I'd say this either has to come from PASS or Microsoft. If it comes from Microsoft, we may as well stop talking because they're either going to do it or not. If it comes from PASS, we have a chance to make a difference because PASS is a volunteer run, community run organization.
The second hard problem is coming up with a mechanism for applying practical certification tests. I'd say, probably, it could be programmed, but you'd need someone to write that program (super powershell guru's, your time is requested). If you don't program it, you have to certify a board of individuals to administer the test... and that raises issues. Politics and personality should not be a part of this cert, in my opinion.
I'm not sure I offered any solutions here, but I tried to.
"The credit belongs to the man who is actually in the arena, whose face is marred by dust and sweat and blood"
- Theodore Roosevelt
Author of:
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SQL Server Query Performance Tuning
March 29, 2010 at 8:00 am
Gift Peddie (3/29/2010)
It's entirely possible that the whole problem here is that it's very, very difficult to understand what you're writing, since it isn't standard English.
It is Broadcast Journalism Engilish written as spoken words and word count is the most important.
Unfortunately, in a technical forum such as this comprehension is of much greater importance than word count.
March 29, 2010 at 8:06 am
Gift Peddie (3/29/2010)
It's entirely possible that the whole problem here is that it's very, very difficult to understand what you're writing, since it isn't standard English.
It is Broadcast Journalism Engilish written as spoken words and word count is the most important.
Gift,
This phrase is a typical example of something from you that is incomprehensible.
Thus explain what you mean by this last phrase.
I'm willing to meet you half way in the effort to understand this last phrase. Even three quarters of the way. I'm open minded and read and write English pretty well (although it is not my mother tongue).
March 29, 2010 at 8:13 am
Michael Meierruth (3/29/2010)
Gift Peddie (3/29/2010)
It's entirely possible that the whole problem here is that it's very, very difficult to understand what you're writing, since it isn't standard English.
It is Broadcast Journalism Engilish written as spoken words and word count is the most important.
Gift,
This phrase is a typical example of something from you that is incomprehensible.
Thus explain what you mean by this last phrase.
I'm willing to meet you half way in the effort to understand this last phrase. Even three quarters of the way. I'm open minded and read and write English pretty well (although it is not my mother tongue).
The problem is you and the others don't understand me but you understand the talking heads. And again many users thanks me and sometimes ask for systems created off line. So I don't understand your reasoning for raising this because this subject comes up when I challenge crap being proposed to keep people out of Microsoft technology because Microsoft makes technology is easy.
Kind regards,
Gift Peddie
March 29, 2010 at 8:22 am
Gift Peddie (3/29/2010)
Michael Meierruth (3/29/2010)
Gift Peddie (3/29/2010)
It's entirely possible that the whole problem here is that it's very, very difficult to understand what you're writing, since it isn't standard English.
It is Broadcast Journalism Engilish written as spoken words and word count is the most important.
Gift,
This phrase is a typical example of something from you that is incomprehensible.
Thus explain what you mean by this last phrase.
I'm willing to meet you half way in the effort to understand this last phrase. Even three quarters of the way. I'm open minded and read and write English pretty well (although it is not my mother tongue).
The problem is you and the others don't understand me but you understand the talking heads. And again many users thanks me and sometimes ask for systems created off line. So I don't understand your reasoning for raising this because this subject comes up when I challenge crap being proposed to keep people out of Microsoft technology because Microsoft makes technology is easy.
Ah yes, I'm catching a glimpse of the meaning of your earlier phrase. Thus 'talking heads'='spoken words'. And 'word count is most important' probably means something similar to 'the more words someone uses to write useless gibberish the more s/he will be admired and recognized'.
So let me ask you this: are you using a translator to come up with this stuff?
In the meantime, I'll try and understand your current response, e.g. being thanked for 'systems created offline'.
March 29, 2010 at 8:22 am
Gift Peddie (3/29/2010)
Michael Meierruth (3/29/2010)
Gift Peddie (3/29/2010)
It's entirely possible that the whole problem here is that it's very, very difficult to understand what you're writing, since it isn't standard English.
It is Broadcast Journalism Engilish written as spoken words and word count is the most important.
Gift,
This phrase is a typical example of something from you that is incomprehensible.
Thus explain what you mean by this last phrase.
I'm willing to meet you half way in the effort to understand this last phrase. Even three quarters of the way. I'm open minded and read and write English pretty well (although it is not my mother tongue).
The problem is you and the others don't understand me but you understand the talking heads. And again many users thanks me and sometimes ask for systems created off line. So I don't understand your reasoning for raising this because this subject comes up when I challenge crap being proposed to keep people out of Microsoft technology because Microsoft makes technology is easy.
First of all, what talking heads are you talking about?
Second, we aren't trying to keep anyone out of Microsoft Technology. The purpose behind certifications should be to demonstrate knowledge, and at higher levels, experience in using the technology. If anyone is trying to keep people out it is Microsoft with the MCM. That is one certification that is, IMHO, way out of the ordinary technologists abilitity to achieve with a cost of 18,000+ and three weeks in Seattle. We are trying to come up with a viable higher level certification that is actually somethig that anyone in this career field could attain, but require a bit more work than Microsofts MCITP.
Third, in a technical forum, you really should work for comprehension, not limited number of words used.
March 29, 2010 at 8:31 am
Michael Meierruth (3/29/2010)
Gift Peddie (3/29/2010)
Michael Meierruth (3/29/2010)
Gift Peddie (3/29/2010)
It's entirely possible that the whole problem here is that it's very, very difficult to understand what you're writing, since it isn't standard English.
It is Broadcast Journalism Engilish written as spoken words and word count is the most important.
Gift,
This phrase is a typical example of something from you that is incomprehensible.
Thus explain what you mean by this last phrase.
I'm willing to meet you half way in the effort to understand this last phrase. Even three quarters of the way. I'm open minded and read and write English pretty well (although it is not my mother tongue).
The problem is you and the others don't understand me but you understand the talking heads. And again many users thanks me and sometimes ask for systems created off line. So I don't understand your reasoning for raising this because this subject comes up when I challenge crap being proposed to keep people out of Microsoft technology because Microsoft makes technology is easy.
Ah yes, I'm catching a glimpse of the meaning of your earlier phrase. Thus 'talking heads'='spoken words'. And 'word count is most important' probably means something similar to 'the more words someone uses to write useless gibberish the more s/he will be admired and recognized'.
So let me ask you this: are you using a translator to come up with this stuff?
In the meantime, I'll try and understand your current response, e.g. being thanked for 'systems created offline'.
My mother tongue is not English either but i happened to grow up in Asia and we had heavy colonial influence so i picked it up, my english is rather too comprehensive with odd asian and british influences but i manage to get through.
Two thoughts - it is a cultural belief in many places that what is said in too much detail and sometimes by savvy speakers/writers is not as good in content as a concise statement. Sometimes you simply can't say things concise and there is no linear relationship to this but again it is a cultural belief and one i have seen pretty liberally used among folks in my culture when they have a hard time explaining things.
'Created systems offline' I believe she means something she built for people outside of work that they still use and appreciate her for.
March 29, 2010 at 9:59 am
Gift Peddie (3/29/2010)
It's entirely possible that the whole problem here is that it's very, very difficult to understand what you're writing, since it isn't standard English.
It is Broadcast Journalism English written as spoken words and word count is the most important.
Please provide a reference for this.
I've never heard any broadcast journalist speak in the manner that you write in, so I guess you mean something other than that.
I searched for "Broadcast Journalism English" online, and couldn't find anything with this as a single phrase.
- Gus "GSquared", RSVP, OODA, MAP, NMVP, FAQ, SAT, SQL, DNA, RNA, UOI, IOU, AM, PM, AD, BC, BCE, USA, UN, CF, ROFL, LOL, ETC
Property of The Thread
"Nobody knows the age of the human race, but everyone agrees it's old enough to know better." - Anon
March 29, 2010 at 11:05 am
GSquared (3/29/2010)
Gift Peddie (3/29/2010)
It's entirely possible that the whole problem here is that it's very, very difficult to understand what you're writing, since it isn't standard English.
It is Broadcast Journalism English written as spoken words and word count is the most important.
Please provide a reference for this.
I've never heard any broadcast journalist speak in the manner that you write in, so I guess you mean something other than that.
I searched for "Broadcast Journalism English" online, and couldn't find anything with this as a single phrase.
I did a search for "Broadcast Journalism English", too, and found this reference.
The technique (to summarize for others) is to write simply and keep the sentences short. Since your audience is not reading the words, but hearing them, he can't go back and re-read a paragraph he didn't quite get.
However, you are missing a key ingredient in your usage of this style. Your posts need to be capable of being understood. Even with your statement of using "Broadcast Journalism English", it doesn't allow me to understand your posts. "Broadcast Journalism English" is not a language, it is a style of writing/speaking.
I have studied English and am an amateur writer. I don't understand your posts and I have had a lot of experience in dealing with people who have English as a second language, both in speaking and in the written word. I really would like to understand what you've posted here. I think it would be a good viewpoint from the other side of the fence, as it were. But I can't, because your posts are not understandable and you haven't clarified them.
I'm not stupid, nor is my vocabulary a small one. But I simply can't understand what you're saying with how you are using and putting the words of the English language together. I know English grammar is a pain (my sympathies to anyone learning it as a second language), but it does have its uses, namely dictating the way the words go together so that one person can be understood by another because they are following the same rules of how the words go together.
Please clarify your prior posts. If necessary, write a new post as if you were first answering this editorial and explain your position on whether or not a mid-level certification is a good thing and if so, what should the qualifications be to acquire it.
-- Kit
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